Low F# note on Hamilton Flute

[peeplj]

I believe (w/all due respect) this is much about nothing. One plays a flute and interacts with it. Even the best handmade classical woodwinds have to be played "in tune;" and I mean played with a capital VERB!

Many who are young in ITM and/or come from a different musical discipline may (at times) try to hold traditional instruments up to a Strobe-Tuner-like standard. Tis' a serious loosing proposition IMHO

Realistically (and feasibly) one ought to try and understand why the intervals on a simple system flute line up the way the do e.g. why if played "straight," (just blowing over the hole in the head joint- are some notes flat to their sisters an octave up etc.?

Recently, I was discussing, w/ a very well known maker, the fine details between of getting a C# and a (unkeyed) Cnat to be far enough apart to sound "right.". These details are worth knowing so you can understand why things are the way they are. After you understand all that and contemplate...myhumble recommendation is to FORGET it all, get off the Internet, and make some music!

Do you think John McKenna was laboring over this stuff?

Great post...I agree 100%.

And I'll also say this: I love the sound of and the scale of my Hamilton flute.

The more you play your Hamilton, the more you listen to good ITM, the more your ear will absorb that scale.

The scale of a good Boehm flute sounds wrong to me now: the F# and C# are horribly sharp on the Boehm flute, and don't even get me started on how bad the scale on an equally tempered piano sounds!!!

--James

[jim stone]

Here's another perspective on the Hammy. Obviously none of
these flutes is going to be strobe-on, but that doesn't mean
none of them have significant tuning issues.

Azalin wrote:

I'm not sure if the Hammy is the right flute to own if it's your first flute. I tried learning flute on a Hammy like 2-3 years ago, and you really needed to have great embouchure control not to blow the high A and B too sharp. I was sick of being so out of tune and gave it all up. I think some people, like me, would rather start with an easier instrument just to keep motivated and then learn a harder instrument later on. Anyway, since then I picked up the concertina and I'm in love with it. I'm getting a lesson from Claire Keville in Ennis in about 45 minutes

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... arp#440529

[cocusflute]

Jim,

You're the one being disingenuous here. I have no idea what bug you have up your ass regarding Hammy's flutes. You just can't leave it alone.

In that same thread Brad Hurley, who has forgotten more about fluting that you or I will ever know, says this about that same flute to which Azalin (and you) referred.

With a focused embouchure, the tuning issues tend to disappear. Some flutes are more forgiving than others in that regard, but I remember playing Az's Hamilton and not noticing any tuning problems.

I'm sure you will find more to say about this issue and further muddy the waters. You're subtly and not so subtly putting down a flute-maker and a musician for whom many of us have an enormous amount of respect.

[jim stone]

Jim,

You're the one being disingenuous here. I have no idea what bug you have up your ass regarding Hammy's flutes. You just can't leave it alone.

In that same thread Brad Hurley, who has forgotten more about fluting that you or I will ever know, says this about that same flute to which Azalin (and you) referred.

With a focused embouchure, the tuning issues tend to disappear. Some flutes are more forgiving than others in that regard, but I remember playing Az's Hamilton and not noticing any tuning problems.

I'm sure you will find more to say about this issue and further muddy the waters. You're subtly and not so subtly putting down a flute-maker and a musician for whom many of us have an enormous amount of respect.

Hey, no one's told me I had a 'bug up my ass' since grad school!
You sure know how to make me feel young again.

Nope, nothing disengenous here. Actually trying to figure what's going on.
Azalin's point is that this may be a flute its better to
come to after you've got a focused embouchure. Brad
says that 'with a focused embouchure issues tuning issues
tend to dissapear.' Brad obviously has one of those, I'm
sure you agree. Their claims are consistent.

Brazenkaine said, there's no issue here. No Irish flute is going
to be spot on. That's true, but a matter of degree can amount
to a real issue, especially for a newbie, if it's pronounced enough.
I add that a significant tuning issue doesn't necessarily have to be
fatal or serious--but it would be serious enough that it might
take a good and prolonged effort to overcome. That's not
necessarily a bad thing.

You know, it's hard to say things here that might be construed
as negative about a flute maker. People get upset, attack you.
But I'm not putting down Hammy. I said these are great flutes.
I would like to have one.

No Irish flutes are spot on, but the Hammy I played really
did have issues. I figure I could have done it after awhile.
Azalin's did too. I suspect Slayer's does as well. I think
Mary has said something like this. Others (Peeplej) are saying things
that suggest the tuning of the Hammy, though to much their
liking, is distinctive.

So I suspect, but do not pretend to know, that Hammy's
flutes inherit some of the idiosyncracies (long may they live!)
of their 19th century originals, especially a flat Fsharp
and a sharp second octave A and B. They may have
them a good deal more than some other Pratten copies
about these days. These will be no
problem for somebody experienced.

Possibly Azalin is right,
these aren't such a good place to begin. Possibly.

It may be that these are all odd samples of one of the
more in tune flutes, but they are coming
up at a rate that is hard to discount.

[Brazenkane]

Ok, I've been sucked in, but ONLY temporarily:

Firstly- Hammy is a brilliant player AND just as good of an instrument maker. PERIOD! If "you" owned one of his instruments that was not what you expeted, you ought to have given him a bell and had any isssues sorted. He is such an incredibly resource regarding flutes (and anything ITM) He is a master-craftsman, and if there was a tuning issue, he would have easily dealt with it.

Sencondly- embochure, embochure, embochure!

Thirdly- read Firstly and Secondly again

[jim stone]

Firstly- Hammy is a brilliant player AND just as good of an instrument maker. PERIOD!

We agree. Not the issue. I think these are among the
best flutes made.

IF the issues I've mentioned do exist,
by the way, I don't think they're accidental. Bet
they are a consequence of the design that
gives these flutes their beauty and power.
And we all agree that the flutes present no
difficulty to somebody good enough to do
them justice.

[Brazenkane]

I've lurked on this list now and again. I keep reading "Hammy's flutes are loud." How about they person who's playing that flute is loud?

Hammy's flutes have the potential to project what the player is giving it, BUT they can sound great when Played non-aggresively too. Put a beginner on a Hamilton and you're going to hear a lot of air. Put Gary Hastings on it and it'll be a diff. story all together.

It's part of the unending sh*t that appears on lists. One guy makes a claim, others mimick and then it's a cyber-fact.

enjoy the list gentlemen, I'm outa here for now!

[cocusflute]

Brazen,
Just because there are idiots on board doesn't mean you should abandon ship.
But if you do, please take me with you.

[talasiga]

Hi folks
Recently I have received Hamilton keyless and is admired with this flute!
That sound what I wanted to hear from a flute - strong, complex, with character.
Tuning also is very good, the low and high octaves correspond completely, except for one note - low F#. This note is appreciablly lower than the others hearing.
.......

My understanding is that on many flutes that are used by traditional musics the note at XXX XOO
is a tad flatter then it would be for the equal tempered scale
taking XXX XXX as the root note.

Slayer, please remember, that the equal tempered scale is an artifice.

[jim stone]

Hi, gang, popping back in for a moment to say
I bought a D hammy from the ever-helpful
Doc Jones. The Fsharp is slightly flat as is
the second octave C sharp, but there are
no significant tuning issues. In short, the tuning is fine.
Excellent flute all round.
I think Brazenkaine was right to say that
any Hammy with tuning issues as serious
as those Azalin and I reported are atypical
and should go back to the maker.

[meemtp]

A flat F# is not a bad thing. I think Irish music sounds better closer to Just Intonation...edit to add this: Really, Irish dance music was intended, in a sense, to be played in Just Temperment since the pipes are indigenous and built for this purpose. Equal temperment had been developed at the time, but the Irish instrument, meant to play Irish music has Just Intonation. Whether this was intentional or not is moot. It's the basis of The Music though. Anyhow...You can always sharpen the note if you're playing with instruments in Equal Temperment, such as accordions..if you really are into that sort of thing.

Good thing you guys don't play the pipes...the F# and C# are flat as a matter of course since the chanter is tuned to Just Temperment. Record yourself droning on a correctly pitched low D, then play it back playing the F# over it and you'll see what I mean. A perfect F# will be dissonant whereas a slightly flat F# blends gorgeously...same with C#. I should get off my keister and record an example with both pipes and flute to demonstrate this someday.

You have to remember that these instruments are made this way for a reason and that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Learning to control the instrument is the hallmark of a good player.

[harrywhohaa]

I had issues with the same notes on a different flute (Hernon).

The issue turned out to be me and I could not change me! (I play very sharp are you the same Slayer?).

I got other people to play it who played less sharp than me, no discernable issues. I sent it back to Marcus, he of course had no issues with it (and played it to me over the phone!).

I got another flute (Murray) and I have no tuning issues (that I can tell) whatsover.

Bottom line for me was I didn't suit the flute and needed to move on to maintain my sanity,

cheers,

[phcook]

Stephane Morvan told me recently that he prefered a slighlty flat F#, for just temperament, although he might tune a equal F# upon request.

We discussed this point regarding an old 8 keyed flute (about 1830), for which he confirmed that it needed to vent the Eb key.

[gododdin]

Cocusflute wrote "fuffy"

What a great description of my tone at the moment! I still have a long way to travel along this road (only just left the bus depot actually ). I currently play an M&E plastic flute (though not for much longer) and it says on the M&E website that the low D is tuned deliberately a little flat so that when you can blow a good hard D it will be in tune. But I have the classic beginner's unfocussed "fuffy" (I like that word!) embouchure.

[peeplj]

Cocusflute wrote "fuffy"

What a great description of my tone at the moment! I still have a long way to travel along this road (only just left the bus depot actually ). I currently play an M&E plastic flute (though not for much longer) and it says on the M&E website that the low D is tuned deliberately a little flat so that when you can blow a good hard D it will be in tune. But I have the classic beginner's unfocussed "fuffy" (I like that word!) embouchure.

Here's an exercise that may help:

First, breath as you need to throughout this exercise; you'll need a good, well-supported stream of air for this to work.

Start with low G. Try to play with only a moderate volume, but experiment a bit--change your lips this way and that, tighter and looser, move your chin in and out...and listen. Try to find the "sweet spot" where your tone is as clear and clean as you can get it. Don't worry about trying to get a hard cutting edge on the tone just yet; right now go for clear and clean.

Once it's as clear as you can get it, change to the next octave up. Try to do the octave transition not by blowing harder, but only with your lips. You should be able to get this note easily with only a minor tightening of the embouchure and just a bit of a shift in the angle of the air.

Then work that g...as before, try to get it as clear and clean as you can.

When it's as good as it can be, try to go up to another octave.

Actually, it won't be an octave this time--it'll be a "partial," and it'll sound high D, and on some flutes it'll have an odd, almost metallic ring when fingered this way. Try to get it clear and clean.

There is actually another partial above that, which is the third octave G, but it won't sound easily on all flutes, so for now, don't worry about this one.

Once these three notes are as clean and clear as you can get them, go down to first octave F-sharp, and start over: first octave F-sharp, then second octave F-sharp, then the partial, which is C-sharp...

Then down to D, and do the same thing.

Skip low E for the exercise for now, as it's an odd note and some flutes need you to back off a bit on it.

The purpose of this exercise is to center the embouchure so that you get a very clean tone with as little wasted air as possible in all octaves.

This should take the "fuff" out of your tone.

It won't work immediately, of course: do it every day, preferably more than once a day. It helps if you record it so that you can go back later to your first recordings and know that it really is working.

Keep at this and you'll come to a point where playing flute takes no more air than whistle (and less air than some whistles!).

--James