ERGONOMICS

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:28 pm

http://ergonomics.org/ -good reading!
Inspired by Dr. Uilliam, I'm curious how pipers sit, their posture, holding their bags, chanters, and legs, and which type of chair feels right to sit in. I personally like a padded folding chair with a rounded plastic back.

I see pictures of Seamus Ennis, his back nearly straight against the back of the chair, and I've noticed other pipers that sit that way too...e.g., Steve Turner?.

Paddy Keenan sits on the front right quarter section of a flat chair, his right leg free to lower down past the side of the chair. His back is away from the chair, and not straight. When he goes to hit a chord in the upper (high notes) area of the tenor/baritone regs, his right leg comes up and maybe his right foot goes to "tip-toes" once in a while, to lift the whole set of pipes. This is kind of equivilant to wearing a neck strap and hunching/shrugging the left shoulder to bring the keys up closer.

When bending notes, or raising the chanter off the knee, his left leg does the work and carries the left hand with it--the back of his left hand seems almost glued to the inside of the left leg..and holding the chanter at a 45 degree angle (to gravity), against the side of his right leg--jeans (he does not use a popping strap). His right hand naturally lays across the D key of the baritone reg, and is always there for the low D chord. When bending a note, you can see his whole body move sideways, like from a fixed position almost, then sway back...interesting theatrics to go with the unusual sound.

He seems to gear his playing around certain whole-body positions. The left fingers (quite long I might add), are mostly straightened from the knuckle outwards, the end of the ring ringer coming right to the tonehole. At times he'll tap out one finger triplets with this ring finger, and woo the crowd.

Paddy's left arm squeezes the bag near the neck, or arm, of the bag, with most of the remaining section behind his arm. His arm is not located across the center of the bag, or even near it. His bag does not deflate/inflate much, if at all, but looks pretty steady.

I tend to form a triangle between the left leg, my left side, and my left arm. I can see how the smaller bag would be easier to hold (esp. standing for GHP) to form a biangle--arm/ribs, but the larger bag/bellows combination offers better performance from my reeds, with less effort for some reason...and noticeably. "Who am I to go against the wind?"

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:20 pm

Larry, I am interested in how you say Paddy K. holds his bag under his arm up high on the neck as opposed to in the middle. Would you say that his set has a large or small bag in your opinion?

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:02 pm

Paul...he doesn't hold his arm up high on the neck, just near it. His arm is still on the front section of the bag...as close to the neck as possible...almost to where the neck joins the main body of the bag. The reed cap for the bass reg is what puts a stop to things. Of course, his arm is under the cap. This prevents him from actually getting his arm onto the arm of the bag. The pic is from his web site and is nice for angles, his L. hand against the leg, etc., but doesn't really show the arm on the bag too well.

[ This Message was edited by: Lorenzo on 2003-02-16 22:33 ]

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 9:38 pm

This one shows Paddy holding the bag--from Cobblestone

Larger image:
http://www.uilleann.nl/pictureGallery/p ... CN1558.jpg

[ This Message was edited by: Lorenzo on 2003-02-17 00:11 ]

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:09 pm

I would say that is a large bag.

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:54 am

Lorenzo,that was a very interesting post and well put together(I don't know about the Dr bit!!)
The bag is quite large in the foto of Paddy, and it could easily be halved without detriment, as the whole of the space behind the elbow is "dead space".When you sqeeze the bag you want the air to go forward to the neck,with a large bag and a a large dead space as well as pushing air forward you are pushing it backwards at the same time thus reducing efficiency.
I have found a ratio of 13"depth edge by 10" lower edge going to 45 degree x 14"upper edge all inclusive of a 3/4" seam ,with a detachable neck to be most suitable.
This means the elbow is near the neck(aka Paddy Keenan)for playing with minimal dead space.
This gives a compact,comfortable and, in terms of air management, very efficient bag.

My favourite playing position is asleep when I am dreaming of being a great player!!

Slan go foill
Liam

[ This Message was edited by: uilliam on 2003-02-18 03:06 ]

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:05 am

Lorenzo... is there stretch in that bag?

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:39 am

I don't think the bag could stretch...I'm sure that the glued edges don't give--for the stretch lengthwise, nor the back glued edge--for a stretch sideways. He had me feel the double layer of of what appeared obviously to be naugahyde--I've worked with naugahyde enough to recognize it.

When I saw the bag in person it appeared close in size to most other bags I've ever seen, but I thought it was perhaps a little longer and perhaps an inch wider...squaring up to be about 12x17" or 12x18" minus the neck. The 1" glued seam made it look decievingly bigger. In the photo above it looks exceedingly long, sticking way out the back. I notice that the lower edge of the neck tapers to the lower edge of the bag, which also increases the volume of internal air capacity.

I'd kinda have to disagree that if you cut the bag in half...that it wouldn't be a detriment, or that you wouldn't notice much difference. Filling a larger bag intially takes a little longer, but once the bag's flap valve is closed, the larger bag would deflate a less distance, in the same length of time, as playing the pipes with a smaller bag. The means that the arm would not have to close to the ribs as far, IOW, less effort. The bellows would work the same for a large or small bag. Keeping the reservoir nearly full all the time also means the larger bag would deflate less distance to the body. Every little bit helps.

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:17 am

The main issue is what the car magazines here call "autonomy", i.e. how far you can travel before you have to refill, which is a function of tank size and fuel consumption. i.e. the bag needs to be big enough to allow you some flexibility about when you refill with the bellows.

The bag-bellows balance (including connecting pipe capacity) is one of the issues which I found attractive in Andreas Rogge's sets. Though I'm not saying he's the only person to have got it right, it's an important consideration, and especially so for a beginner or someone making the transition to a full set. I laboured for years with a mismatched mongrel set, so it's a feature which I appreciate.

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:35 pm

On 2003-02-18 08:05, Tony wrote:
Lorenzo... is there stretch in that bag?

Tony I can assure you that there is stretch in the bag naugahyde/vinyl is what I make bags from and there is an elasticity in it.Paddy Keenan on his own bag is quoted in Na Piobaire Uilleann a few issues back saying his bag has a bit more give in it because it is made of vinyl.It is like having a bit of a spring in it and certainly makes for easier playing.
Liam

MacEachain · Post by **MacEachain** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:38 pm

Hi Folks,
regarding ergonomics, has anyone ever had problems with the angle of the bellows outlet. I found that on mine the outlet almost pointed at my left knee (bellows on right hand side) causing the outlet pipe to kink and virtually close off. I made a new outlet which comes off the bellows at about 45 degrees and it seemed to cure the problem.

Cheers, Mac

[ This Message was edited by: MacEachain on 2003-02-18 15:06 ]

brendan ring · Post by **brendan ring** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:57 pm

Ergonomics are indeed important and I think size of bags and bellows and how they interact with each other are vital. I don't know whether it's science or trial and error but I suspect the latter. The design of bag and bellows I use is based upon(although different) to that of Cillian O'Brian. I had a large bellows which although airtight was for some reason not efficient. There were also problems with the hinge hitting the tenor drone and regulator. Cillian introduced me to a smaller shorter bellows and the difference was stunning. Regarding the bag for me it is certainly trial and error based on my personal size. Just because Paddy Keenan holds his bag in a certain way doesn't mean it's the right way for me. Liam O'flynn has a completely different stance again and Johnny Doran played standing up! It's very individual and certainly is worth the effort put into the research. I also go with William in that I prefer a smaller bag. Just my two cents!

Brendan

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:06 pm

There has been talk on this board in the past (conjecture I think) of Paddy using inner-tubes, and rubberized bags...which would add up to a signifigant stretch, by any stretch of the imagination.

Sure, naugahyde stretches a little, especially if the day is hot, the material black, and the sun is shining on it. I can imagine it would balloon an infinitisimal amount, even on a cool day, perhaps even noticibly indoors on a warm day. Leather would shrink (I think) and tighten up, and I can see where the naugahyde would feel more bouncy than leather.

EDIT NOTE: I might add that naugahyde comes in different strengths and quality. The tonneau cover on my 1960 MGA is single thickness, and will attached to the pins on a hot day, but try to put in on on a cold, or cool day...impossible! If I've taken it off on a warm day, drive around till after dark, and the air cools down, I can't even stretch the cover (approx 3'x4') enough to slip the holes over the pins. Needs the sun!

Notice the naugahyde tonneau cover. Also these cars create poor posture!

Hey...the real me! My old avatar! I must have switched pics on the web site!

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:45 pm

Fuzzy backed vinyl (Naugahyde) stretches more than woven back vinyl. Not by much, but it does.

vcolby · Post by **vcolby** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:39 pm

You know what they say about British cars: Drive em on Saturday, Fix em on Sunday. Beautiful little car, but missed the association with erganomics.

V