This Old Flute - nach Meyer

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:43 pm

I'm quite prone to tinker with things, and am developing an urge to enlarge the tone holes on my nach Meyer so it will play A=440. Currently it's A=420 and while everyone likes the tone everyone is tuned to A=440 so I can't play it at sessions.

Good idea or bad idea? I don't guess there's much historical value I'd lose in doing so.

(Edited to change the title of the thread since we're covering a lot more now.)

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:40 pm

Carey,
Are you thinking about doing all the keyed holes as well? I know nach Meyers are quite common but if it works well at the pitch it was designed, I'd keep it there. Plenty of other flutes out there play at 440. Just my opinion of course. Anyone out there successfully converted such a low pitched flute to modern pitch? I've read about the high-pitched flute cures on Terry McGee's site. Can the head somehow be shortened and would the scale still be useful after such an operation?

Feadoggie

groxburgh · Post by **groxburgh** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:51 pm

Carey wrote:I'm quite prone to tinker with things, and am developing an urge to enlarge the tone holes on my nach Meyer so it will play A=440. Currently it's A=420 and while everyone likes the tone everyone is tuned to A=440 so I can't play it at sessions.

Good idea or bad idea? I don't guess there's much historical value I'd lose in doing so.

I think it might be a good idea and have done quite a few of these myself. Just to correct something however, if it's at A420 it's not 20 cents out but more like 80 cents out.

Is it at A420 with the tuning slide fully in? Because if so you won't get it up to A440 just by enlarging holes. Is it reasonably in tune with itself at A420? What are you using to check the tuning with - a tuner, RTTA (Flutini or Polygraph) ???? Lots more questions before I could suggest how to attack it. PM me if you like.

cheers
Graeme

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:08 pm

PM on the way Graeme.

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:48 pm

Feadoggie wrote:Carey,
Are you thinking about doing all the keyed holes as well? I know nach Meyers are quite common but if it works well at the pitch it was designed, I'd keep it there. Plenty of other flutes out there play at 440. Just my opinion of course. Anyone out there successfully converted such a low pitched flute to modern pitch? I've read about the high-pitched flute cures on Terry McGee's site. Can the head somehow be shortened and would the scale still be useful after such an operation?

Feadoggie

Yeah, I'd do the keys too. I like the C nat, F nat and Eb keys especially so far.

I've got my grandfather's fiddle and tenor banjo from around 1920, so having a flute from around then is sorta cool somehow. That's partly why, plus I kinda like this flute. I'm sure I'd like the modern ones too. But I doubt I'd get much for $275.

I had the thought of making a new head for it and seeing if shortening it would help. I'd have to do both really, shorten the head to get C# where I want it (and/or enlarge the embouchure?) and then tune up the rest of the holes because they will be relatively less farther from the embouchure if the flutes shorter.

It's great that Graeme has done a number of them and is willing to comment. (Yea!)

Carey

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:30 pm

Ya..keep us posted...this is just getting interesting...

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:24 pm

Sure will Jack, I will post from time to time as progress is made. Win or lose it will be a tale worth telling given the number of these flutes that are around.

Carey

(edit for spelling)

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:49 pm

Just thinking out loud here folks.
A = 440 hertz
G#/Ab = 415.305 hertz
100 cents between every half tone
420 hertz is ~20/25 = 4/5 = 80 % or 80 cents below A= 440 hertz
420 hertz is 20 cents above G#/Ab
This has already been mentioned by Groxburgh

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:52 am

It seems unlikely that a nach Meyer flute is pitched at 420 Hz. The reigning pitch in continental Europe at the time was 435Hz, although it's always possible that the flute was made for export to some other place. Unless you measured the low D note and the classic flat foot syndrome is pushing down the pitch. I usually take an average of the left hand notes, and treat the low D as a separate issue.

I notice that you mention the flute is 20 cents flat, which is about 435Hz (compared to A440). That's not the same as 420 Hz - you can't mix cents and Hz. There's a downloadable Centz to Hertz converter on my website if you din't want to face the calculations!

Anyway, I imagine Graeme is inveigling an RTTA plot out of you. I hope you put it up for us all to enjoy the before and after.

Terry

groxburgh · Post by **groxburgh** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:05 am

Well I've looked at a couple of plots and it's certainly in best tune with itself at about A420-425, and with the slide right in is still at about A435 with the tuning not so good. I think we'll be looking at shortening it at the head end, plus taking some out of the join between left and right hand body sections, enlarging the bore in the foot and making some/most/all the holes bigger. Should be doable - and we can do it incrementally. I'll let you know the plan so you can comment after I think a bit more about it.

Cheers
Graeme

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:40 am

Terry,

I could believe they were aiming for 435 and missed. To be in tune with itself the head is out just past where the silver shroud ends and I would think the design would have been to hide the brass when in tune.

Here's a couple other plots from earlier tests I did on Flutini (I had RTTA working for about a day, then the computer decided it wouldn't run the first bit any longer

and I've not got around to wrestling with the computer yet):

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/parkscarey/ ... 1858"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/parkscarey/SIvGOBR ... 20hand.jpg" /></a>

The above had the tuning slide out more than 1 cm and the stopper in, but not to 19 mm I don't think if memory serves.

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/parkscarey/ ... 4514"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/parkscarey/SJEE_XS ... closed.jpg" /></a>

The plot above had the slide full closed and the stopper out to the max travel of the screw. Maybe 25 mm.

Yeah, I slipped up with the Hz/cents thing. Sorry to cause confusion. I'll change the title if I can to Hz.

C

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:42 am

All,

I was going to post the preliminary plan but I see Graeme has done it. A bigger project than I had thought, but a good example of why it pays to "ask for directions." I would not have thought about shortening the joints. Good idea eh?

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:58 am

Terry McGee wrote:
I notice that you mention the flute is 20 cents flat, which is about 435Hz (compared to A440). That's not the same as 420 Hz - you can't mix cents and Hz.

When I was growing up, frequency was measured in cps (cycles per second) units, which makes a lot of sense (not cents), because the unit name describes what is actually being measured. Now we have to live with frequency measured in Hertz units. The powers to be also decided to divide musical equal-tempered semitone intervals into 100 cents, just as a dollar is divided into 100 cents. So we have two different ways of describing musical pitch: by naming the exact frequency in Hertz or by naming a cents interval below or above a known reference point, such as A=440 Hz. Like Terry mentioned above, when you mix cents and Hertz, you need to be careful. Cents talk can easily turn into nonsense.

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:14 am

In case others wish to compare their flute to mine, here's some measurements:

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/parkscarey/ ... 8722"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/parkscarey/SJHV00D ... ements.jpg" /></a>

groxburgh · Post by **groxburgh** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:14 pm

With the tuning slide fully in the tuning is very approximately as follows for a D major scale
D E F# G A B C# d e f# g a b
-45 -45 -70 -45 -25 -18 -25 -30 -35 -55 -30 -15 -30
I think the first thing to do is shorten the head by 5mm (There's a few ways to do this)
This would give tuning of approx:
-27 -25 -58 -22 -1 +7 +5 -15 -19 -28 -10 +11 -8
We've now got the left hand notes within the ballpark and we can do some more plots of it at that point to get a more accurate picture of where it's at.For the right hand notes we'll have a couple of options. If we removed 5mm from the join between the left and right hand sections we'd have the tuning at about:
-9 -5 -26 +1 -1 +7 +5 0 -3 -11 +10 +11 -8
which is looking a lot better but while it's possible to remove 5mm from the join there and something I've done before myself, we might look at the hole sizes first.

The hole sizes in mm are approx:
L1 L2 L3 R1 R2 R3
7.0 7.3 6.4 7.2 6.8 5.5
which is rather small especially in the right hand holes: for a medium holed flute we might like something more like:
7 9 7 9 10 6
so instead of removing ~5mm from the join between the left and right hand sections we could try enlarging the holes in the right hand a bit which would also bring up the volume a little. Going to 9, 10, 6 for R1, R2, R3 might actually get the tuning quite close. D we can lift by enlarging the bore in the foot which will also probably increase the volume of low D, and lift low D more than the 1st octave d which is something we want to achieve, and altough we haven't checked low C C# Eb they're almost certainly flat, and enlarging the bore in the foot should enable us to lift those up to pitch as well as the D.

So what I suggest is:
Take 5mm off the head end. It would be easiest to remove it from the top of the right hand body section but could be removed from the head or barrel.
Decide what tuning we actually want - equal temperament or something different.
Check the tuning more thoroughly. If the tuning is now as we expect then:
Enlarge the holes incrementally mostly in the right hand section.
Check the tuning even more thoroughly.
Repeat the last 2 a few times.
Enlarge the bore in the foot.
Check the tuning even more thoroughly.
If the right hand notes are still flat compared to the left hand take some out of the join between left and right hand sections.
Check the tuning even more thoroughly.
Undercut the keyed holes to get them up to pitch, since we can't enlarge them easily without rebuilding the seats. Given the type of music we intend to play it won't be a huge issue if some of them remain a bit low in pitch.

???????
Comments welcome.

Cheers
Graeme

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This Old Flute - nach Meyer

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