unusual tonehole spacing on Overton low D

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:08 am

I've played a lot of low D whistles, over the last 25 years but especially recently, and all of them have fairly similar tonehole spacing. There's only so much variation possible, because if you move the toneholes too far from their "acoustically correct" positions you get notes that are weak (low volume and lower "breaking point") and have a poor tone, and if you DO have all the holes in the "acoustically correct" positions few people could (or would want to) achieve the necessary finger-stretch. So, the various makers, by acoustics and human anatomy, are forced into a pretty similar compromise.
You can tell a tonehole's relation to its acoustically correct position by its size: a hole larger than the rest indicates a hole placed too low on the bore, a hole smaller than the rest indicates a hole placed too high on the bore. A large hole at or near its correct position yields a loud clear note, while a small hole too far up the tube yields a weak note.
This is mostly noticable on the lower-hand notes. Evenly-sized holes would mean a very wide distance between the F# and E holes, so makers usually make a oversize F# hole lower on the tube combined with a undersize E hole higher on the tube. The lower, oversize F# hole also helps in that it increases the distance between the F# and G holes which otherwise would be quite close together. Sometimes the G hole is also made undersize to move it further up the bore in an attempt to gain a more even spacing between the three lowerhand toneholes.
This medium-large-small tonehole arrangement (G-F#-E holes) usually makes for a low E which is weaker than the surrounding F# and bottom D.
(I went into this tedious preamble to so that everyone reading, even "newbies", would be on the same page as regards what follows.)
ANYHOW just a couple days ago I bought an Overton low D whistle that has a curious arrangement of the lower-hand notes. The F# hole is NOT oversized but is the same size as the upper-hand holes and is therefore a bit further up the bore than usual. The G hole, to increase the distance between it and the F# hole, is quite small, the size that E holes usually are. The higher F# hole has necessitated a very small and very high E hole. In short, the entire lower hand has been moved higher on the bore than usual and uses smaller toneholes than usual.
This has resulted in a noticably weaker low G, F#, and E.
B, A, and bottom D are as strong as would be normal on any low D whistle and the cross-fingered C natural is particularly fine.
I don't myself see the logic in moving the F# and G toneholes, usually at about their correct locations and therefore strong notes, so far up the bore with small holes, which makes the too small/too high/too weak low E problem, always the bugaboo on low D whistles, worse.
Anyone experienced similar things with Overtons or other makes?

Goldie · Post by **Goldie** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:45 am

Sounds unusual. I cannot say I have made any like how you describe. Do you have any pictures of it? Do you know who made it?

It could have been custom made by Bernard? If I ever make a custom whistle for someone I would always point out the pros and cons of what they are asking for but from what you described I cannot recall ever making anything like that.

Colin

CranberryDog · Post by **CranberryDog** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:46 am

No, I haven't seen any Overton as you describe. My Overton has beautiful intonation and equal power on all the notes. It was made by Colin Goldie. Cheers, Cyril.

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:48 am

... retracted

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:23 am

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~maaac/images/ ... -Low-D.jpg

This one was made for me by Bernard Overton. It has the 'close finger spacing' option. It sounds like yours is the same. I don't notice the difference in volume. Holes 1,2,3 are just under 10mm in daimeter. Then we have 6,10,7 mm for the bottom 3 holes. If you assume hole 5 (10mm) should not be any bigger then hole 4 has to be small to keep the fingers from being too close and hole 6 has to be small for the stretch to be not too big. So why not have a bigger hole 5? Anybody care to post hole sizes on the standard Overton for us?

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:48 am

Having seen this

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

I am more confused.

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:31 am

Now, the hole sizing and spacing on all those whistles in the photo in the Spillane article is the usual. Note that the F# hole is larger than any of the upper-hand holes, which is done to place it further down the tube, CLOSER to the correct position of the E hole. The E hole is smaller than the others, done to place it further up the tube. This jockying of hole size is done to bring those two holes closer together.
The Overton I have is different in that the F# hole is the same size as the upper-hand holes and therefore is further up the tube, making it even further from the E hole's correct position. To make it reachable the E hole is very small and much higher than its correct position, making it very weak. The G hole is higher and smaller than is usual also. So, F# and G are a bit weaker than is usual for low D whistles while E is much weaker than usual.
Moving the entire lower hand further up the tube does nothing to reduce the finger-stretch required for the lower hand. It just makes all the holes smaller, and all the notes weaker, than usual. Perhaps this whistle was made for someone with short arms?

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:51 am

You certainly seem to have a point there pancelticpiper. Could someone with a normal Overton post some dimensions for us. My close spaced Overton has the following. Measuring from top of each hole.

Space between4th and 5th hole is26mm
Space between 5th and 6th is 44mm

Attempting to measure between centres I get 28 and 43 respectively

For good measure

Hole sizes are 6.5 10 and 8

lalit · Post by **lalit** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:41 am

pancelticpiper wrote:Moving the entire lower hand further up the tube does nothing to reduce the finger-stretch required for the lower hand. It just makes all the holes smaller, and all the notes weaker, than usual. Perhaps this whistle was made for someone with short arms?

Not to be nosy or anything, pancelt, but how did you, a known advocate of strong low notes, end up with such an unusual whistle?

CranberryDog · Post by **CranberryDog** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:52 am

lalit wrote:
pancelticpiper wrote:Moving the entire lower hand further up the tube does nothing to reduce the finger-stretch required for the lower hand. It just makes all the holes smaller, and all the notes weaker, than usual. Perhaps this whistle was made for someone with short arms?
Not to be nosy or anything, pancelt, but how did you, a known advocate of strong low notes, end up with such an unusual whistle?

I too am curious. I thought pancelt was that card carrying Burke guy.

I suppose there is a chance that you have a counterfeit Overton. I don't believe you mentioned that it is signed.

Pancelt also states: "It just makes all the holes smaller, and all the notes weaker, than usual". Weaker than usual? My experience with several Overtons is that they are more powerful and more balanced than the "usual" low D whistle. The hole placement on my large hole Overton is almost identical to a Burke Viper; however, the holes are larger and make it a real rafter rattler; close to the volume of my large hole Rudall Irish flute. Cheers.

Reyburnwhistles · Post by **Reyburnwhistles** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:10 pm

Just to throw in another possibility... when I make an instrument tuned to "Just" temperament the large F# hole is much smaller and all of the holes are closer to being the same size. Is it possible you have a "Just" tuned instrument?

Ronaldo

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:22 pm

CranberryDog wrote: I suppose there is a chance that you have a counterfeit Overton. I don't believe you mentioned that it is signed.

Bernard Overton doesn't sign his whistles, only Colin does. There is the OVERTON stamp, but that's on the back.

The hole spacing on my (Colin Goldie) Overton is very different from this:

My Overton is bottom whistle in this picture:

Measurements: Counting holes from the fipple, and measuring from top of each hole, the distance between the 3rd and 4th holes is 56mm. Between 4th and 5th hole, 28.5mm, and between 5th and 6th hole, 56mm. Hole diameters (4, 5, 6) are: 9.5mm, 11mm, and 9mm. All the measurements are approximate I guess, and I am measuring the edge of the beveled holes with a ruler, not the interior diameter with calipers.

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:49 am

Close spaced Overton:
Space between4th and 5th hole is26mm
Space between 5th and 6th is 44mm
Hole sizws: 6 10 7

Normal Overton:
Between 4th and 5th hole, 28.5mm,
and between 5th and 6th hole, 56mm.
Hole sizes: 9.5 11 9

So Bernard knew what he was doing after all. All we now need is the logic/physics involved. Maybe it's just that bigger holes move down the pipe and get further apart. The crucial change of the 5th hole from 10 to 11 then leads to the rest of the sizes and positioning. If that is the case it is quite surprising.

I am happy not to have the extra stretch.

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:54 am

So here is a little science project. Make a whistle with one small hole then make it bigger more and more. Measure frequency against hole diameter.
The resulting graph could be interesting.
Any volunteers?

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:39 am

Thanks for the input. Yes this Overton is exactly like the one by itelf in that photo labelled "Overton Low D close finger spacing made by Bernard Overton".
This whistle is quite in tune to equal temperament.
The physics involved are pretty obvious (at least the basics). For a given pitch, a hole must be made smaller and smaller as it is placed higher and higher on the tube, and be made larger and larger as it is placed lower and lower along the tube. Big holes close to or at their acoustically correct position give a loud and clear note and are more stable ie can be pushed without breaking the octave. Small holes, which perforce are higher on the tube than ideal, give weak and fuzzy notes and must be blown softly or they will break the octave.
The bugaboo on low D whistles is the spacing between the E and F# holes because this is a step-and-a-half. The nearly universal compromise is to place an undersized E hole higher than ideal combined with an oversized F# hole slightly lower than ideal.
The curious thing about this whistle is that it does the opposite in regard to the F# hole: it uses a normal-sized hole higher on the tube making the gap between it and the E hole GREATER than usual, and in response the E hole had to be moved even further from its ideal location and made even smaller. To reduce the finger-spread of the lower hand to the maximum possible degree you would make the F# hole as large and low as possible in order to have the E hole, at an acceptable distance, as low and large as possible. The E hole is always too small and high- look where it is on a high D, and think about trying to finger a hole that far down and that large (keeping everything to scale) on a low D.
Anyhow I just saw this whistle on Ebay and I wondered how a new Overton played. My only previous experience with Overton low D's was with two early ones c1979 and c1982, neither of which I liked. These had the usual wider finger-stretch very similar to most low D's. But I see that this whistle is not representative of how most Overtons play. By the way, it has hardly more backpressure than the Burke.