pipers grip vs. normal

[pipersgrip]

hi guys, i read that the normal grip is better than the pipers grip. i started playing low whistle first, so naturally i have the pipers grip for playing flute. is that bad? i just cant do normal grip, it is too hard on my hands.

[peeplj]

hi guys, i read that the normal grip is better than the pipers grip. i started playing low whistle first, so naturally i have the pipers grip for playing flute. is that bad? i just cant do normal grip, it is too hard on my hands.

There are some fine flutists who use piper's grip. I wouldn't see it as a problem if it works for you.

One caveat: if you ever play a Boehm-system (silver) flute, don't play with piper's grip as it's bad for the mechanism.

--James

[jim stone]

hi guys, i read that the normal grip is better than the pipers grip. i started playing low whistle first, so naturally i have the pipers grip for playing flute. is that bad? i just cant do normal grip, it is too hard on my hands.

Few people can use 'normal' grip on a low whistle; most people can
do it on a flute. Why do you say you can't do normal
grip on a flute? Because you can't do it on a whistle?
Is that (whistle) what's too hard on your hands?

Do you have some physical/structural difficulty?

Not clear what the problem is. Please explain some more.

[daiv]

if you're going to try "normal" or classical, twist your left hand towards the right--the holes will seal better.

tom doorley does it pretty well in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-MrUX03mWM

look at his pointer finger: it is facing the exact opposite as it would in a pipers grip. at about 1:10 the middle finger of his left hand collapses flat on the hole, which i find is normal.

personal, i find it nearly impossible to play pipers grip and get the low D to sound immediately after doing finger vibrato in an air. it's why i switched! with a slanted, "classical" grip, you can collapse to vibrato or ornamentation but still have the muscle speed to correctly sit the holes immediately afterwards.

[seisflutes]

if you're going to try "normal" or classical, twist your left hand towards the right--the holes will seal better.

tom doorley does it pretty well in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-MrUX03mWM

look at his pointer finger: it is facing the exact opposite as it would in a pipers grip. at about 1:10 the middle finger of his left hand collapses flat on the hole, which i find is normal.

personal, i find it nearly impossible to play pipers grip and get the low D to sound immediately after doing finger vibrato in an air. it's why i switched! with a slanted, "classical" grip, you can collapse to vibrato or ornamentation but still have the muscle speed to correctly sit the holes immediately afterwards.

Wait, are you saying Tom Doorly isn't using piper's grip? I thought that the way he holds the flute would be referred to as piper's grip (though it's not exactly how pipers hold the chanter), whereas Matt Molloy would be an example of the "normal" hold, as in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHcDY76a_eY

[Rob Sharer]

Here we go again. Lads, the chief feature of the grip that a piper uses on his or her chanter is the use of the second joints to cover the holes. Some flute players do this also; this should properly be called the "piper's grip".

Tom Doorley is covering the holes with the flats of the first joints of his LH fingers. It's just not the same as the piper's grip, and it certainly isn't the standard grip, a la Matt Molloy. I continue to advocate for calling T.D.'s grip the "Irish grip," since so many Irish players adopt this hold.

To me, the advantage of this grip is that the LH index finger is straight, which allows the full weight of the finger to be used in playing "ricochet" techiques, where the finger is bounced off the tone hole, as well as smoothing out A and B rolls. Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

Tom Doorley is definitely using one of the flute versions of "piper's grip" - and notwithstanding his fine playing, just look at the stress in his L forefinger (it is that visible!) and general un-relaxedness of the whole L hand. For another version of "piper's grip" that looks even more stressed and uncomfortable, not to say insecure, see the Gary Shannon clip Cocusflute posted recently Gary Shannon/Sligo Polka .

As I keep saying, there are many fine players (I know at least one personally) who use "non-orthodox" holds on their flute and play better than many of us (not excluding myself) can aspire to, but I would NEVER advise anyone to adopt anything other than the "standard"/"classical"/"Rockstro" hold because, unless an individual has a specific hand/arm abnormality/problem, it is demonstrably and provably the mechanical optimum. Check out previous threads telling you how to do it, or any other source of tutoring, and try it. Any initial sensation of strangeness or awkwardness should soon disappear as it becomes habitual. If you experience any ongoing stress or mobility difficulties, you aren't doing it right and need (with the help of an experienced eye?) to modify your hold/posture.

Useful threads may include:-
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#661043
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#681267
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#671310

BTW, and somewhat turning the topic on its head, although on smaller, higher whistles I play with all fingers arched slightly, pads on holes, thumbs under in orthodox fashion, on larger, lower ones I use a semi-piper's posture for R/bottom hand, where I put the pad of R3 on the lowest hole and the middle knuckle of R1 on hole 4, R2 on hole 5 hitting at about the top knuckle-crease; but my top, L hand is more an adaptation of L hand flute hold - my hand is slightly "ducked" and L1 and " are arched to cover the holes with their pads while L3 reaches in fairly straightened, all at a c45 degree angle to the tube, just like for flute, save that the L1 doesn't press its side against the tube. I find this very comfortable and secure. I have medium size hands with broad fingers and a wide span, though, so these things come easy for me - these pics show me holding first my low D and then low Bb tubes on my Dave Lymm whistle head - the Bb does have offset holes for L&R3, though.

[Rob Sharer]

Jem, I disagree wholeheartedly with your assertions regarding "piper's grip." There is no optimum hold; this is art, not science. Loads of players in Ireland use either the piper's or the similar Irish grip, to great effect. I'd go as far as to say the Tom Doorley's hand looks perfectly relaxed, and his music certainly sounds relaxed. Ditto Garry Shannon. Why are you trying to correct your betters?

Rob

[jemtheflute]

Jem, I disagree wholeheartedly with your assertions regarding "piper's grip." There is no optimum hold; this is art, not science. Loads of players in Ireland use either the piper's or the similar Irish grip, to great effect. I'd go as far as to say the Tom Doorley's hand looks perfectly relaxed, and his music certainly sounds relaxed. Ditto Garry Shannon. Why are you trying to correct your betters?

Rob

Rob, I wouldn't have the temerity to try to "correct" them - they are indeed my betters and would not take any notice of me if I was daft enough to try. I made it perfectly clear I RESPECT them, and I agree and have acknowledged that "Loads of players in Ireland use either the piper's or the similar Irish grip, to great effect." I would not seek to counsel people who are settled in any posture that works for them, lets them play freely as they wish and doesn't injure them. But I disagree with your "art not science" point - especially when technical advice is being offered to an inexperienced player. I do think Doorley's L1 looks stressed not because of some preconception that it must be, but from observation; ditto Gary Shannon's R wrist and R1&2 look twisted and strained by his posture. My subjective but experienced view. The art is in the musical interpretation, not the supporting physical technique, which is a craft and discipline susceptible of scientific analysis and capable of benefitting from the results of such understanding. The fact that some brilliant artists overcome self-imposed technical handicaps doesn't mean we should advise people to copy them in those respects - indeed I think it irresponsible and unhelpful to do so.

[Rob Sharer]

Self-imposed technical handicaps? Codswallop. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the alternative grip, as practiced by legions of very good players in Ireland and elsewhere. I'd have no trouble recommending that a beginner try an alternative hold, as it's just one more option open to all of us who play simple-system flute. At the end of the day, who cares what a particular grip looks like? What's important is 1) how it feels to the player, and 2) what the music sounds like.

Listen to Doorley. What's wrong with his music? Nothing. How can his grip be "wrong" if he sounds like that? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Rob

[peeplj]

Codswallop

This is purely an aside, but that's not a word you run into every day round these parts.

Thanks for providing me with a big grin.

--James

[Gabriel]

As soon as someone feels comfortable with his/her grip, he/she can't be wrong at all, in my opinion.

[Rob Sharer]

Spot on, Gabriel. What I find myself constantly railing against is the sort of right way / wrong way argument that occasionally gets put forth on this subject. It's perfectly possible to play lovely, relaxed music with the Irish grip, and to look and feel relaxed doing it. I've just watched my own left hand in the mirror whilst playing a reel in G, and it would be hard to imagine anyone accusing me of looking strained or awkward (for me, nothing feels more strained or awkward than Rockstro). Perhaps I'll post a photo, once I get done congratulating myself on how relaxed I look and sound.

Rob

[crookedtune]

There you have it, newbies. Here are two of our most experienced and accomplished posters, and they have very different outlooks. Once again, I suggest we take this all in, "cogitate" on it, and develop our own solutions, based on our individual preferences, tastes and body-types.

Diversity and innovation are the heart of folk music!

[jemtheflute]

What's important is 1) how it feels to the player, and 2) what the music sounds like.

As soon as someone feels comfortable with his/her grip, he/she can't be wrong at all, in my opinion.

Once again, I suggest we take this all in, "cogitate" on it, and develop our own solutions, based on our individual preferences, tastes and body-types.

Hear, hear, Rob, Gabriel and Crookedtune.

Rob, I have NEVER said Tom Doorley or anyone else was "wrong". Please don't put words in my mouth, or draw unwarranted implications. I try to be very careful and precise in what I say - and I stand by what I've said in this thread, hoping it will be helpful to those who asked.........., but knowing full well that it is just a personal perspective, as is Rob's.