Keyed Chanters

Don Roberts · Post by **Don Roberts** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:44 pm

I'm sure this has been asked many times but to answer another newby question, what would be the keys most often prefered and why?

mattpiper · Post by **mattpiper** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:12 pm

F-natural and C-natural are the two most common keys... The second octave C-natural is generally only available through the use of a key. An F-natural can often be approximated with cross fingerings and off-the-knee playing, but the key makes life a lot easier.

B-flat and G-sharp are the other two keys, and while it's nice having them, their aren't too many opportunities to use them...

Yoann · Post by **Yoann** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:33 pm

B-flat and G-sharp are the other two keys, and while it's nice having them, their aren't too many opportunities to use them...

Exactly. You should learn to half-hole G# to play in A anyway. This is an important skill, neglected by many pipers as we rarely play in A. I think it can sometimes sound nicer than with the key if executed properly.
The only vital key is C nat*. If you have the cash then by all means go for all of them to be ready for any situation.
Listen to Eliot Grasso's new cd 'Up Against The Flatirons' if you can. He makes good use of the chanter keys. As does Seán Potts in the tune Splendid Isolation on his cd.

Edited to add: * for C nat in the 2nd octave...

CHasR · Post by **CHasR** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:22 pm

mattpiper wrote:
B-flat and G-sharp are the other two keys, and while it's nice having them, their aren't too many opportunities to use them...

unless you really want to let go and get into some wild G minor Gypsy modes with augmented seconds...lydian minor improv...phrygian cadences and general scalar balkanization...
naaahhh(not)

Don Roberts · Post by **Don Roberts** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:26 pm

Thanks fellas, this UP thing is kinda confusing. I've been at it for about three months, I got a ways to go I think ?
So, if I choose to play a tune with a G key signature that calls for natural C , then I would need the Key ? Why then if playing a tune in D that calls for C natural I can play the note without a key ? Am I making sense ?

Stefan_Kayat · Post by **Stefan_Kayat** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:05 am

The C natural key is only used in the second (high) octave. When in the lower octave you can (and should!) get the C natural by way of cross-fingering. Lift the right hand long finger, and perhaps the right hand ring finger as well, while playing C. Takes a wee bit of practice, but it's worth it!

boyd · Post by **boyd** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:22 am

Yoann wrote: You should learn to half-hole G# to play in A anyway. This is an important skill, neglected by many pipers as we rarely play in A.

Just to expand on this......
We rarely play in A 'cos the drones are in D and the combination usually doesn't sound right. Thats why Scottish pipe or fiddle music doesnt translate terribly well to the UPs, needs to be Irish-ified (which is hard to do unless you're Robbie Hannan or Eliot Grasso

)
.... there's even the odd piper will get an A drone....I think Mick O'Brien has one on his D set by Froment/Rowesome.

But most of us just stick to tunes in D or G...and occasionally other keys such as D minor, where the F natural key comes in handy in faster tunes.

If you're going to play a lot with the drones off, thats a different matter. Get all the keys you can.
The B and G keys are good for accidentals as much as anything, or for variations on rolls (listen to Eliot, he's wicked for that sorta thing)

Boyd

Elmek · Post by **Elmek** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:03 am

Why don't UP makers like keying chanters. The old sets I have seen in museums always have them fully keyed up. The NSP makers have no trouble fitting ridiculous numbers of keys and using them so why not the UP makers.

My own half set has a chanter with just the c key and plain blocks for another 3 or 4.

Is it because UP makers do not like making keys or is it a case of leaving the insrument half done to give some work in the future

John

KevinCorkery · Post by **KevinCorkery** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:35 am

I think you get what you pay for. If you're new to UP then you probably don't want to spend $1,500 for just a chanter. Then again, half holing can be more effective than using a key, only the c-nat is necessary. Its all up to the buyer.

billh · Post by **billh** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:16 am

Elmek wrote:Why don't UP makers like keying chanters. The old sets I have seen in museums always have them fully keyed up. The NSP makers have no trouble fitting ridiculous numbers of keys and using them so why not the UP makers...

Well, the NSP players usually make heavy use of the keys - since NSP doesn't overblow the octave, etc. and it's a totally different style of playing. As Kevin infers, many UP players prefer using half holing for many of the (few) accidentals such as Fnat because the resulting effect is nice.

Most makers charge 50/100 or more per additional key. Also, more keypads == more to leak (same as with flutes, though perhaps not quite so severe a problem for us).

I feel as though perhaps the old narrow-bore/"flat" chanters are better suited to keys, but perhaps that's a bias I have based on the fact that the best old examples did have loads of keys (including, often, high d/c#, high e, and Eflat). Compared to making a "plain" chanter, though, adding all those keys takes a lot of time. Since no two key shapes are exactly alike on a chanter, and lengths/shapes vary across pitches, it may not pay to use cast keys for the chanter (and cast keys are inherently weaker than hand-forged ones anyway). Hand-forging is labor-intensive.

best regards,

Bill

Davy Stephenson · Post by **Davy Stephenson** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:55 am

There are many good laser cutting companies who can cut a complete set of regulator keys out for you for twenty quid today, rolled brass or nickel sheet is very ductile/strong, not like the cast rubbish/pakistani.

Hand forged keys can also be temperamental/brittle if they are hammered too much between annealings, but I think have the edge on looks.

A little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.

billh · Post by **billh** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:15 am

Davy Stephenson wrote:There are many good laser cutting companies who can cut a complete set of regulator keys out for you for twenty quid today, rolled brass or nickel sheet is very ductile/strong, not like the cast rubbish/pakistani.

Hand forged keys can also be temperamental/brittle if they are hammered too much between annealings, but I think have the edge on looks.

A little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.

What are you insinuating?

Cast stuff need not be rubbish - it can be equal in quality to the finest jewelry. However cast keys are "fully annealed", metallurgically, thus at maximum softness.

This thread is about chanter keys. They tend to be long and thin in profile, at least most of them, and strength becomes an issue. Laser cutting companies may be able to cut flat pattern keys from stock, and even do some degree of folding/forming, but that still leaves a lot of hand work before they can be attached to a chanter, if you want them to look halfway decent.

Bill

Davy Stephenson · Post by **Davy Stephenson** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:10 am

Yeah Yeah !

rorybbellows · Post by **rorybbellows** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:55 pm

I was on a bit of a downer coming back from my weeks holiday ,but on visiting the forum find that Bill (the professor) Haneman and Davy (cnc)Stephenson are going head to head and all of a sudden I feel better. Everything is as it should be !!!!!

RORY

Davy Stephenson · Post by **Davy Stephenson** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:52 pm

Don't worry Rory I will get over it, knowledge is needed so don't knock it where or whoever it comes from, that is how things progress.

A little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.

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