Mystery Hammered Dulcimer Player?

[Ptarmigan]

Here's an interesting old photo, an American H-D playing friend Paul Gifford sent over to me, yesterday.

It's of three musicians, Fiddle, Flute & Hammered Dulcimer players.
However it's the Dulcimer player we are keen to put a name to!

It looks like it was taken in Ireland & the fact that the man on the right is playing a Fife sized flute makes me think it might just have been taken in the North, but who knows?

That's probably just wishful thinking on my part!
Well, it would be cool wouldn't it, to find a long lost photo of John Rea!

Anyway, here it is:

[SteveK]

I don't know who the dulcimer player is. I recall seeing a picture something like that. I think it was in one of Fintan Vallely's books, maybe The Companion to Traditional Irish Music.

I can't imagine the condition my back would be in if I played like that for even five minutes.

[Ptarmigan]

Yes Steve, I must admit I personally do not like standing to play my H-D, so I always sit down.

However, it seems to have been the tradition in the Glens of Antrim, to stand in that kind of a stooping position to play.

I know the late, & famous, John Rea adopted that pose, as did two of his H-D playing relatives, the late Nat Magee & also William Rea, who is still hammering away, thankfully!

[ceadach]

Hi Ptarmigan,

Quite the mystery! Outside of Antrim players the only other time I've seen this playing posture is shown in a 15th century Flemish painting. You probably have seen it on Kettlewell's site http://dulcimer.new-renaissance.com/Even the players instrument seems close to the dimensions of the Rea brothers. Perhaps your photo is of another yet unknown Antrim player!

Another thing that struck me; Players of the old Irish clairseach were often depicted in a similar stooped position but seat, often with their heads resting on the neck of the harp.





See CHAPTER 3: History to 1800 > Early Renaissance - 15th century
fig.18a: Flemish ms, 1492, BL Add. 18851, fo. 164r. (7235)

P.S.
In an effort to help indentify the player, I tried to enlarge the photo with some software I have. I'll grant that the detail is fuzzy and what could be part of a soundhole, might look like a bridge when magnified. Bearing this in mind, I counted 11 treble course and 9 or 10 bass. The bridges look like the chess men type and not the "connected" bridges seen on the Rea style instruments. On the other hand the hammers and the player's grip are most similiar to John's, as is the over all size and shape of the instrument. The prescence of a fife player could also point to somewhere in Ulster. Any idea of when this was taken?

Thanks for sharing this and Good luck in your quest!
Chad Mac

[talasiga]

BTW, Ptarmigan, I refer to a topic in your site which I do not wish to join because I am a flutey type (although my ex. played and sang with appalachian dulcimer since the 70's).

Whether its written as Santoor or Santur does not change the pronunciation of the the Middle Eastern or the Kashmiri HD.
Given the differing phonic values of the letter "u"' in English, some people prefer to represent the sound as "oo" instead of "u" to ensure the correct pronunciation.

(Thats why "mung beans" are often written as "moong beans").

The Middle Eastern dulcimer and the Kashmiri dulcimer are not identical although the latter (despite indo cultural "fundamentalist" claims) is derived from the Persian.

I hope you find the following link relevant
http://www.chandrakantha.com/articles/i ... antur.html

[Ptarmigan]

Hey talasiga, thanks for that interesting link.

A sentence I found interesting there was:

One must not confuse the Indian santur with the Persian santur.
The Indian santur is box-like while the Persian version is much wider.

Yeah, that's exactly why I thought it might be useful to use the different spellings of oo & u on my site, to help distinguish between the two instruments, which are of course very different in shape.

It's interesting to hear you talk about which came first, because personally, I don't get too excited about the origins, the old chicken & egg arguments are so much hot air to my ears.
I'm far more interested in the music each plays & how & why the instruments have become so different in shape, despite possibly & no doubt very probably, having come from the same root instrument.

I'm actually sick to the back teeth of people fighting & arguing over origins here in Ulster, & quite frankly there is so much bull _ _ _ _ talked about that kind of stuff. Thousands of people have sadly lost their lives here over such nonsense & at the end of the day, does it really matter which came first, or which developed from which?

By the way, just for the record, you don't have to be a Dulcimer player to join my forum, cause it's actually open to anyone who has an interest in any of the Dulcimers of the World.

Although, I must say English is actually the language of the forum ....... hmmmmm I wonder, does Australian qualify?

Cheers
Dick

[ceadach]

Oddly, I seem to writing a lot on this topic today.

Here's a site devoted to Hindustani santoor. http://www.santoor.com/ There are sound clips of Pandit Sharma speaking of the origins of the instrument.

Say Ptar, did the Rea's have any other relations that were players?? After a hard look at the blow ups I did, there is a strong resemblence between this mystery man and John. John had other brothers (aside of Willie,) who were musicians, as was his father. Did any of them play dulcimer?

Chad Mac

[talasiga]

One must not confuse the Indian santur with the Persian santur.
The Indian santur is box-like while the Persian version is much wider.

Yeah, that's exactly why I thought it might be useful to use the different spellings of oo & u on my site, to help distinguish between the two instruments, which are of course very different in shape.
.....Although, I must say English is actually the language of the forum ....... hmmmmm I wonder, does Australian qualify?

Cheers
Dick

The thing is that both ways of spelling are applied to both forms of the HD because both ways are an attempt to represent the SAME souund. Both the "u" and the "oo" are for the sound you get in an English word like "room" or "doom" or "gloom" (but not "floor" or "door")
but a little bit shorter. These words are pronounced the same in the majority of English accents around the world.

That is to say, a short version of the "oo' in "room" = the "u" in "put". The "u" in santur is not the "u' of "but".

[ceadach]

Talji,
I'm generally not one to split hairs , not as if in makes any difference but....back when I was playing the Hindustani instrument, my guruji pronounced it "Saan- Toor" with the same A sound as "paan" and very roundish O or U sound like that in Tulsidas. The T has the palital accent (i.e. tongue hits the top of your mouth, as in the word "Tihai".

A dear Irainian friend who plays the classical Persian dulcimer pronounces it much shorter and the S gets the accent, like this "SAn-tr. The "S" sound is a dental in Farsi, and much sharper than the "s" one hears in Hindi or Punjabi, and the "A" the open A sound like "Aalif".

Despite the considerable past influence of Iranian languages on modern northern Indian ones, in terms of vocabulary and phonology, the dialectic differences are notable. Like the instruments the words used to describe them are not the same.

I freely admit my command of both Hindi and Farsi is appallingly limited, yet, I , a dumb yankee can hear the diffence betwixt the two. Perhaps using a different spelling to keep them straight isn't all that bad of an idea? " Ti-kai hae ji?"

[Ptarmigan]

Hey Chad, how's this - a photo of two more members of the Rea family.
Jack Bethel kindly sent me this old photo of the Rea family playing in Glasgow, many Moons ago!
They are a Son (left) & two Grandsons, I believe.
Fact is, they actually have John Rea's old Dulcimer!

N.B. Note the Dulcimers are resting on top of matchboxes, or the like, just as John used to have to do!



P.S. Going back to the language debate. I must admit, were it down to me, I'd vote for a different spelling for those two instruments, given that they are obviously pronounced in a very different way. It'd certainly make life a lot easier for outsiders like myself!

[ceadach]

Ah the Reas march on!

To hazard a guess, it looks like this photo was taken in the late 70's or 80's sometime.
Might this be Alec Rea?? And are the two grandsons still out there and playing?? If my guess about the date is right, that would make them right about my age. I noticed three dulcimers in the photo, I gather the lad playing the accordian also played the H-D.

As to the matchbox thing, actually John was on to something there. I noticed this with my own instrument the other day, having propped it up on my kitchen table with the little box that I keep my old dead reeds in. The table seems to reflect the sound of the back more at the player and uses the table as resonator. Something that might come in handy in say a crowded noisy pub! I wonder if John ever used his unique case a stand? Set on end, he may have been able to.


John Rea's wooden dulcimer box, from "The Dulcimer" by D. Kettlewell

Chad

[Ptarmigan]

Sorry Chad, I should know by now not to trust my memory!

The Dulcimer players in that photo above, are actually James Rea, a nephew of John Rea, and his two sons George & David.
Oh RE: THE DATE - you weren't far wrong either, for the photo was taken in 1986.

Yes all three played the H-D but sadly the Accordeon is the preferred instrument of both George & David & although George tells me he keeps John's old H-D out on a stand & tuned up, he rarely plays it these days.

Here's an interesting photo, taken by Jenny Coxon last summer in my Saturday night session Pub, the Smuggler's Arms, which lies betwixt Bushmills & the Giant's Causeway.
It shows Nat Magee (left) & William Rea, both relatives of John Rea playing their H-Ds which are exact copies of John Rea's & were in fact made by Nat's father.
Sadly Nat passed away earlier this year, which leaves only William to carry on the Rea tradition.

[talasiga]

Talji,
I'm generally not one to split hairs , not as if in makes any difference but....

You may or may not be splitting hairs but your points are not to the point. I am trying to help Ptarmigan re. a comment at his site which turns on the question on which is the correct way to denote the Persian and the Indian HDs. He suggested the idea that "santur" seems to denote the former and "santoor" the latter. What I am pointing out is that both forms are used to denote both types of HD and therefore the idea is not particularly useful. Just above I have provided a link that specialises in Indian music which refers to the thing as "santur".

Also both forms are renderings in English Roman script and I don't believe any intelligent layman or linguist would argue that the these attempts can ever accurately reflect the actual pronunciation of the words in their native tongues.

Ptarmigan, here is a typical site that shows that both the spellings are applied to the instrument:-
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0080225.html

It is interesting that the word's etymology goes back to the Greek.

[Ptarmigan]

Steady lads ... no need for Pistols at Dawn!

Aye talasiga, the more I search the net for sites on these instruments, the more I realise that each is regularly given the same name as the other & yet, in that first article, they made it very clear that the instruments are very different in shape all right.

Interesting too, to see that on that last link you posted, the Dictionary site, when you put Santur into search, it says that Santur is actually a variant of Santoor, not the other way round as I had expected, & yet the sites often refer to the Persian one as the Santur & the Indian one as having come from it!

Santur

Anyway, on my own wee forum, for the time being at least, I'm calling the Indian one the Santoor & the Persian one the Santur, just for a bit of clarity ( not to mention my own sanity ) while I get my head round this linguistic dilemma. Probably not very PC I know now, but heck, I'm only human .......

Och, if only every question was as easily answered as the old Chicken & Egg one!

[talasiga]

I guess we could take the same approach for the difference between the Irish and the Breton harps and spell the former "harp" and the latter "larp" (as in l'harpe). That way you wouldn't have to put Irish or Breton before the word to denote what you mean. Saves keystrokes for those of us who don't play keyed instruments much.