Grey Larsen on ornamentation... Really?

[Jason Paul]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm new. I have Bill Och's book/CD and have gone through it. I've only learned a couple of the tunes in it though.

So I got Larsen's book. I'm liking it so far. Many would probably consider his detailed explanations overkill, but so far I'm liking it.

However, I just read the chapter on cuts. Sure sounds like a lot of work to learn, and a lot of phalangical (TM) gymnastics to contend with. Cutting the note immediately above the note you're cutting makes sense, but his description of cutting ascending and descending notes seems far more complex than it should be.

When I was learning from Brother Steve's site, I got the impression that the recommendation was to use one of two cut fingers all the time. Larsen mentions this, but says his method is better. His explanation of why makes sense, but I'm not sure if learning his method is worth the time and effort.

Any comments on this? Have any of you actually learned and used his method? Is it worth it?

This sounds like it could make whistle playing more work and less fun. However, if it's worth it I could put some time to it. But if someone who plays using the "same two fingers cut" method plays just as well as someone using Larsen's method, then I'd just as soon stick with two fingers.

Thanks,
Jason

[GaryKelly]

Learning to cut with 'the note above' will make life a lot easier when it comes to learning rolls.

[Wanderer]

Learning to cut with 'the note above' will make life a lot easier when it comes to learning rolls.

It will...
That said, I still only cut with the index and ring fingers of the top hand.

[Bloomfield]

Learning to cut with 'the note above' will make life a lot easier when it comes to learning rolls.

Really? I didn't think it made much difference for that, and I often find myself cutting a E roll with the top hand, or a G roll with the top finger.

Here is my take: If you are going to play just whistle, it doesn't matter much. Best not to use the finger right above the first open hole, but there is no issue if you use the note above. Use just two fingers, as Steve recommends if that's easier. The only problem is that in the second octave, g and a sound harsh and ugly if cut with the high b. I tend to cut those with the note right above.

That issue is exacerbated on the flute, where in the second octave particularly, you want to cut as close to the note sounded as possible. I suspect this may be where Larsen comes from, although I frankly don't put stock in the things he says. On the flute you'll notice very different sounds depending on what you cut with what finger. Cutting an E with the top finger (as you can on the whistle), doesn't work well on the flute, imho.

On the pipes, finally, I hear that it matters a lot what finger you cut with, and the differences are noticeable. I heard a story of someone learning the pipes and practicing at Willie Clancy Week. Seamus Ennis, who was several rooms down the hall, at one point yelled, "not the top finger!" refering to the cuts the piper was just practicing.

This will sound strange, perhaps, if you're just starting out: But if you get better you will (have to) develop the ability to cut any note with any finger. So no harm in getting all the fingers moving.

[peeplj]

I agree with Bloomfield on this one: you are best served by learning to cut (and tap) with any finger.

--James

[Jayhawk]

I think Bloomfield is correct in stating Grey is probably basing his technique on his flute playing - I find cutting and rolling using the note above to be my preferred method on flute (although I don't do this for all notes - some work better with different fingers/notes to cut or roll around).

It's really not hard to get used to...just takes a little practice.

Eric

[GaryKelly]

'Course, you should really be learning to cut by ear.

[jsluder]

'Course, you should really be learning to cut by ear.

But how do you get your ear on the hole and still keep the fipple in your mouth?

[Jason Paul]

I think I can get used to using the finger immediately above to cut.

I guess it was just his instruction on cutting ascending or descending notes. And maybe it just sounds more complicated in the book than it really is. It's the stuff like this:

A down to a cut D. Simultaneously put down T3, B1, B2, and B3 and lift T2. Replace T2. In the upper register you will want to vent the D (i.e. lift T1) as you cut it.

Three or four pages in a row of that makes it sound like learning cuts is quite an undertaking. Maybe it just sounds harder than it really is.

Thanks,
Jason

[Craig Stuntz]

'Course, you should really be learning to cut by ear.

But how do you get your ear on the hole and still keep the fipple in your mouth?

Gary never said it has to be your own ear. I'm told that fiddlers, especially, are always willing to help out in this respect. Try it at your next session!

[GaryKelly]

It's the stuff like this:

A down to a cut D. Simultaneously put down T3, B1, B2, and B3 and lift T2. Replace T2. In the upper register you will want to vent the D (i.e. lift T1) as you cut it.

Looks worse than it is. You're going from A to D, and cutting the D, thusly:

xxo ooo is the A you're starting with. Then you (extremely briefly) play
xox xxx before finally the note proper:
xxx xxx D

Not how I'd do it, personally, but there ya go.

[Cynth]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm new. I have Bill Och's book/CD and have gone through it. I've only learned a couple of the tunes in it though.

So I got Larsen's book. I'm liking it so far. Many would probably consider his detailed explanations overkill, but so far I'm liking it.

However, I just read the chapter on cuts. Sure sounds like a lot of work to learn, and a lot of phalangical (TM) gymnastics to contend with. Cutting the note immediately above the note you're cutting makes sense, but his description of cutting ascending and descending notes seems far more complex than it should be.

When I was learning from Brother Steve's site, I got the impression that the recommendation was to use one of two cut fingers all the time. Larsen mentions this, but says his method is better. His explanation of why makes sense, but I'm not sure if learning his method is worth the time and effort.

Any comments on this? Have any of you actually learned and used his method? Is it worth it?

This sounds like it could make whistle playing more work and less fun. However, if it's worth it I could put some time to it. But if someone who plays using the "same two fingers cut" method plays just as well as someone using Larsen's method, then I'd just as soon stick with two fingers.

Thanks,
Jason

I used his idea because I didn't know what I might be going on to. He gives a lot of explanation in order to be perfectly clear---and he is. Don't let the explanation disturb you. Just read it slowly and put it into your own words. You'll find that the ideas are not hard, they make sense. And I found that it became close to automatic in a shorter time than I expected. Yes, at first I was having to think but it is a definite pattern just like the other way so I doubt one is really harder to learn than the other.

[bradhurley]

I have heard (from one of her former students) that Mary Bergin cuts everything with a B, except for B itself, which she cuts with C#, and she cuts C and C# with d.

That makes sense to me; I do much the same on both the whistle and the flute, although I tend to cut D with either G or A.

Cutting with just one note above is usually less interesting to my ear; there's more brightness when you cut with a higher note than that. My general rule of thumb is "cut high, tap low" for the biggest contrast.

[shadoe42]

I have that book. Doesn;t he actually say somewhere in that section or near it that his system is designed to facilitate moving to the flute ?

[bradhurley]

I have that book. Doesn;t he actually say somewhere in that section or near it that his system is designed to facilitate moving to the flute ?

Even if that's the intention, you can still cut with higher notes on the flute and it sounds fine. He does have a point that cutting with just one note above sounds better in the second octave on the flute, but I don't find it makes a big difference for me. With the pipes on the other hand, you tend to drop back to the first octave if you cut with the high notes on the second-octave e and f. Mick O'Brien advises using A to cut the first-octave D, E, F, and G on the pipes, and then in the second octave you use g to cut the e and f.