Beware of cheap ebay flutes!

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:12 am

FURTHER TO POSTS ABOVE re: EMPIRE BRASS AND TO TERRY McGEE'S "Help! Ethical Dilemma!" THREAD........

Here is the correspondence I have had with Vikram Vaisoha of Empire Brass in India subsequent to their posting in this thread. It seems rather a "you can take a horse to water" kind of a situation.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: info@synergyhouse.net
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Chiff & Fipple thread

Hello Vikram/Empire Brass,
Can I prompt you to have another look at the thread you recently contributed to on Chiff & Fipple and the discussion of your flutes? When you have read my post, I'd be very happy to talk to you if that might be helpful. I'm not a shop or a wholesaler, just a flute lover who buys and sells and re-conditions old flutes. If you check out some of my contributions to C&F on other topics you will see that I know what I am talking about. I think you almost have a good product that could be improved, without major investment in production, to a point where it could get a good reputation - which despite your comments and testimonials, it does not yet have, or frankly, deserve. Its faults are the more annoying because they could so readily be corrected! It is certainly in a different class from the mostly dreadful things that come out of Pakistan (and maybe from other Indian sources than yourself) masquerading as flutes, but it could so easily be so much better! I am sure you could make a proper D flute at A=440 with slightly re-designed keys for much the same costs as the present version. There would be some initial redesign and re-tooling costs, I suppose, but then you would just resume manufacture on the same principles as at present, with perhaps better quality control, especially regarding embouchure cut.
Regards,
Jem Hammond (Jemtheflute)

----- Original Message ----
From: Synergy House <info@synergyhouse.net>
To: Jem Hammond <jemhammond@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 13 October, 2007 12:12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread

Hi Jem,

Thanks for your email. I do agree that we can improve our product quite easily but we want to go through that process with a regular distributor which we are now looking to set up in Europe now that our American side of our operations is in place. We do expect to address these quality issues in the coming year by finalising a branding arrangement directly or indirectly. So far our sales have been on price points due to which we havent worked on quality much but are expecting to up the ante a bit shortly once we finalise our distribution for our rather small production capacity of this line due to which we havent paid much attention to it so far.

Warm Regards.

Vikram Vaisoha.

www.synergyhouse.net

----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: Synergy House
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread

Hi again Vikram.
Thankyou for your response. I wish you good luck with improving the flutes and marketing them in future.

I would be interested in any specific responses you may have to the precise technical/design problems I outlined in my C&F posting - were you aware of those exact faults; have other people made the same points to you; are you going to improve those particular features and if so, how? I would be doubtful whether simply setting up marketing and wholesale mechanisms would necessarily drive you to effect the vitally necessary re-design. This is not just a quality control issue! Many mainstream music retail outlets that sell "traditional" instruments as a sideline do not have the expertise or interest in such instruments to identify the problems! If you don't sort out those foot keys in particular, it won't matter what systems you set up, the flutes will still be irritatingly sub-standard - and unnecessarily so! Similarly, you need to make sure that your main product is a flute in D at A=440 Hz, not an E-flat flute at A=440 or a High Pitch instrument. Of course, if you get the design and pitch issues sorted out properly, then there would undoubtedly be a market (albeit not a huge one) for instruments in E-flat, F and both high and low B-flat as well as the bigger market for standard D flutes.

Perhaps you would like to make your responses on the C&F thread as well as to me personally?

Best wishes,
Jem Hammond.

----- Original Message ----
From: Synergy House <info@synergyhouse.net>
To: Jem Hammond <jemhammond@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, 26 October, 2007 1:24:12 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread

Hi Jem,

thanks for your email. sorry I took so long in replying since I got caught up with another shipment that has fortuantely now left and all is on schedule.

as for these instruments and quality issues, the reason I put distribution to be key is that unless we have a large enough market that is willing to pay, we would leave the product as it is to sell at bottom prices online etc..we would however further develop the product once we have a regular market for them..

I will try to get back to this thread on that website which I had addressed back then since it greatly affected our reputation..I would however still be happy to have a dialogue with you at that site..could you give me a link if available? thanks.

Vikram Vaisoha.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: Synergy House
Sent: Friday, 26 October, 2007 9:24:05 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread

Hi Vikram,
No need to apologise - we're all busy! Thanks for replying when you could.

The link to the Chiff&Fipple thread you posted on before is: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=34685

Addressing your latest remarks, with respect, although I understand in part your commercial point, I think you are "putting the cart before the horse". If you do succeed in setting up distribution of your present product, you will simply get a name for selling a poor one - and if you then improve it you will have trouble overcoming that established image. That would be a pity. I won't re-write the points I made in my previous e-mails or on the C&F thread - but I would draw them to your attention again. I think you would have a better chance of a good distribution deal and of growing your market if you get the product right first! As I did say before, I think that could easily be accomplished.

Surely you could at least get some samples of an improved version ready with relatively little trouble or cost? If you were to do so, I would advocate you sending them for review to some of us with some expertise in these instruments who move in the circles that would be your potential market. Mainstream European Classical/Popular music shops do not have that expertise or market. Personally, I would certainly be willing to follow up the suggestions for revised design I have already made to you by reviewing a product made accordingly - helping to remove any remaining deficiencies and then willingly recommending a satisfactory end-product. The world of Irish Traditional Music works more by personal contact, "networking" and special interest community interaction than it does by standard commercial routes.

Have a look on C&F at the way some makers send out "review copies" of their instruments, sometimes to specific reviewers, sometimes on a "tour", then use the feedback to improve the product and also benefit commercially from the recommendations they receive. That is a far more effective marketing ploy in this specialist field than getting a couple of your flutes into every high street music shop where neither staff nor most customers will really know what it is and will treat it with disdain as "inferior" to a modern orchestral instrument.

Seriously, you have an opportunity for help with design improvement, expert review and commendation - not necessarily with me - I am not trying to empire build! You could easily research the online wooden flute and Irish music networks and ask for volunteers or hand pick advisers and reviewers. I am sure you would get a group of suitable people quite readily if you made it clear that you wanted to get your product up to an acceptable standard and commit to keeping it there before going into general supply. If you flood the market with deficient merchandise, no-one will take you seriously and your present borderline (a trifle unfairly so, and by misassociation with some real rubbish that comes from the subcontinent!) reputation will be permanently damaged.

I really would like to see you get these flutes right, but, to return to my equine metaphor, "you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"!

Please do feel free to keep in touch. I shall be interested in how things develop for you.
Very best wishes,
Jem Hammond.

To date I have had no further reply, but I don't anticipate a change of heart/message!

Rama, was it these guys you corresponded with or another crew?

rama · Post by **rama** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:40 pm

i had email exchange a few years ago with one of the ebayer's, not the manufacturing folks, had to do with the advertising.

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:03 pm

empire_brass wrote:
.......
Lastly we are the `only' company from India with these value for money products and since we are selling them unbranded at most times, we are now finding copies of our products around the place which are actually quite shoddy so do consider this to be a caveat to our Indian (not Pakistani) flutes, etc. .............
...................................

Thank you for your time and attention and I do hope to have more opinions from you all so that we can continue to improve ourselves and our products.

More info on our products is available at www.synergyhouse.net

Distributor/wholesaler enquiries to be sent to ceo@synergyhouse.net

Dear Empire Brass,
welcome as a new member to this global forum.

I am surprised that you have introduced your India based company in a topic about Pakistani made flutes. Therefore I have started a separate topic to take up your invitation of our opinions as to how you may improve your Indian made Irish flutes.

You may be pleasantly surprised.
Best Wishes,
Talasiga

Aanvil · Post by **Aanvil** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:29 pm

Wow Jem that was pretty enlightening and rather generous on your part. Good on you!

Its quite clear these gents are not in any way truly interested in making any effort to create a playable instrument but to off load crap to unsuspecting future flutists.

How many people will be discouraged in taking up the flute after struggling with their unplayable tooters?

Legions I imagine.

Charlatans!

Hucksters!

Fakirs!

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:46 am

I'm copying below a post I've just made for Talasiga's "Indian" thread - which I think really belongs here with the rest of the stuff about Empire Brass....

Peri/Aanvil wrote:

It's quite clear these gents are not in any way truly interested in making any effort to create a playable instrument but to off load crap to unsuspecting future flutists.

How many people will be discouraged in taking up the flute after struggling with their unplayable tooters?

Peri, I disagree with you about the playability issue regarding these specific flutes only. I agree they don't seem to have much intention of improving them, which is plain silly on their part for reasons I outlined to them and which your view reinforces, but their product as it stands, whilst of limited usefulness (Eb) and with deficiencies, is playable, unlike some.

********************************************************************************************

Right, FWIW, here are some demo clips on the Eb ebonite, Pratten style flute I have (2nd hand off eBay). I assume it is one of the ones by Empire Brass as it looks exactly like theirs (see pics above) and I haven't seen any others closely similar advertised, but obviously I cannot state with certainty that it is an Empire flute.

I have not (yet) modified this flute in any way other than to put in a replacement stopper in the head as the original was loose and leaked. It really is not that bad - certainly not unplayable. I realise the production quality may be inconsistent and I have only tried this one, but if they are mostly around as good/bad as this, they are fit for a bit more than ornamental use, unlike some of the cosmetically pretty but musically truly dire keyless ones one sees.

I have no interest in these other than to see fair play. They do have deficiencies, as I outlined in my detailed description/critique of this one above, and as these clips show - though bear in mind that my playing is also deficient, especially on a flute that I rarely pick up, leading to missed fingerings and not necessarily properly adjusted embouchure. As I said before, I have played keyless flutes by current "reputable" makers that were worse out of tune with themselves than this is. I still think that a re-cut tweak to the embouchure will get a much stronger tone from this flute, and the very flat keyed C natural hole can be tuned up, although it is really not in the right place. The only other adjustments necessary are to the design of the keys to put them in comfortable reach.

This is close - frustratingly close - to being a decent entry level 8-key flute. It is NOT quite there and I'm not trying to make it sound better than it is, but neither does it deserve some of the oprobrium being thrown around. Listen to the clips!

Chromatic Scale - low "C" to 3rd 8ve G#

Slip Jig - An Phis Fliuch (Sorry for inflicting this one on you all yet again, but I find it a really good tune for testing out a flute.....)

Double Jig - Queen of the Rushes

Reels - Maid of Mount Cisco & The Musical Priest

NOTE: I am cross-posting this on Talasiga's "Indian" thread.

dipl_nb · Post by **dipl_nb** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:14 pm

Hi Jem,

I found this topic about the ebonite flute in Eb after I already ordered the flute from Empire Brass on ebay (30 euro + 45 shipping). I ordered the flute 7 days ago and it arrived just 3 days later. I have to say that I'm still an complete noob to flute playing (and music making in general)

The purchase of the Eb flute was a rather impulsive act (after seeing some YouTube clips of Hatao and Aanvil). At this moment I'm neither disappointed nor satisfied with the flute. Imo it's a very nice black flute (from India) and regarding to the finish, of decent quality. I fully agree with your description of it. My concern is that I can't get a good tone out of it when all the holes are covered (and the 2 boehm foot keys opend). So I can't get a proper Eb tone

. This could be because I've still to master the embouchure, but this could also be caused by inconsistent production quality of the flute. Maybe some kind of tuning is nessasary (head join cork?).
I've bought today a tin whistle to get an easyer start but hope to be able to learn how to play this Eb flute in a decent manner.
Thanks for posting the clips of the empire eb flute. You make it sound wonderful.

Do you, or someone else have an idea how the sound of this flute can be improved. I've checked the stopper cork. It's not leaking and situated approx. 3~3.5mm left from the embouchure hole (maybe to close?). I've also checked that de joins and the keys (when all closed) aren't leaking.

Thanks,
Dimitry

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:55 am

Dimitry, pm response sent.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:56 am

New on eBay! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... NA:US:1123
This looks like a new version to crop up! Similar to but, on close inspection of the pics, somewhat different from the Indian "Empire" brand we have discussed. A very garbled version of flute history in their blurb, though interesting that they have taken the bother to research that far, if with little understanding or accuracy of synthesis! I haven't laid eyes, let alone hands or lips on one of these, so make no comment about their playability. I wonder if these were the people harassing Casey and Jon C recently? It would be interesting to get hold of one to try (without having to pay for it)!

G1 · Post by G1 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:07 pm

I found this forum some time back (recently joined) from trying to Google the eastern flutes.

It saved me from spending my hard earned cash on one. Many thanks, folks.

Instead, I wound up with a really nice Doug Tipple; and just now picked up a Dixon from another member.

Great advice and resources, guys!

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:17 pm

I have recently done up what appears to be another Pakistani flute - see this thread for the full tale and this post for the upshot. Just goes to show, don't make sweeping assumptions. Not all Pakistani flutes are irredeemable junk, though many are - and I have several on a shelf in my shed to prove it!

Referring to previous posts I've made in this thread about Empire ebonite Eb flutes, I've recently done what I proposed and re-worked the foot joint key touches so they are usable and also tweaked the embouchure. It's really not bad at all. No time for now, but will try to post pics and clips at a later date.

All of which brings back the old question, why don't they just make that little extra effort, which would cost them next to nothing, and get these things right?

G1 · Post by G1 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:57 am

Actually, I bought the $50 ebay flute from a buyer who had posted concerns here a couple of months back. I had the joints corked and smoothed out the embouchure. My girlfriend is happily playing it now! It's not my Seery, but is very playable and has a decent tone.

I earned some relatively cheap 'attaboys' from her with that one. So, yeah - not all are total junk... but buyers should beware all the same. It was a $50 gamble.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:16 am

Absolutely agreed, these things are a gamble unless you can try 'em out first, and even then, even the better ones won't do as they come, but need tweaking/correcting/improving. But then, buying antiques, even "name" ones, off eBay or otherwise at a distance is also a gamble. Undeniably most of the Pakistani plain keyless wooden flutes seen on eBay are junk, completely unplayable even given attention, and I would not wish anyone to be misled to think otherwise by things I have written in this and other threads.

Latticino · Post by **Latticino** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:44 am

Another wrinkle on the whole e-bay Pakistani thing.

First let me say that I've been bitten twice now trying to switch from whistle to flute with nominal investment using e-bay (the first one was an ebonite flute of which the less said the better). I also bought one of the Pakistani wood flutes and (from "tunes of wood" on a second chance offer at ~$75). On receipt I found it was worse than unplayable, it was unassemblable. Even with all the cotton thread removed (prior to re-wrap with silk or rayon) the body tennon would not fit into the foot joint. This was much more than just humidity swelling, but with some judicious modification to the interior of the socket I was able to rewrap and assemble to attempt to play. Just to be clear on my skill level, I have an older M&E and could at the time get a consistant octave and a half from it, and play several simpler tunes. The Pakistani flute notes (intonation?) were so far out of tune with each other that even a simple scale was excruciating. A much better candidate for Casey's chipper than the reject parts he demoed. However the vendor did accept it back less a somewhat exorbitant restocking fee, so I guess I can't complain too much.

On the other hand, I just came across the following article on the web:

http://isellguitars.com/offers-yearly-u ... tead.shtml

If it is factual then I guess it is more than possible to "improve" one of these flutes to make it playable. Kind of hard to believe though...

lazyleft · Post by **lazyleft** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:29 am

azw · Post by **azw** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:01 pm

Latticino's "another wrinkle on the whole e-bay Pakistani thing" was interesting. It's good to see what "M and E" is. Does it strike anyone else as deceptive (if intentional) to be calling a tweaked Pakistani flute by essentially the same name as M&E's?

Polczynski makes a number of confident statements in that article that had my eyebrows doing jumping jacks. For starters, the few Pakistani instruments I've seen used woods that didn't seem to be nearly the same quality as the "real" instruments. And how does he fix bad intonation? You can increase the size a bit, but that can't fix every sin.

Polczynski's flutes sound a lot like the wrecked and salvage cars that are rebuilt and sold to unsuspecting buyers.

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Beware of cheap ebay flutes!

Empire Brass Correspondence

Re: Clarification from Empire Musical Co for our flutes..

?Empire? Brass Eb Flute - demo clips.

M&E and Pakistani flutes

Re: M&E and Pakistani flutes