Question for Box players: B/C or D/G?

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Martin Milner
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Question for Box players: B/C or D/G?

Post by Martin Milner »

I have a question for anyone who has a bit of experience playing button accordion - do you play B/C or D/G (or something else?), and are you happy with your choice?

I've just taken my first stumbling step along the B/C path, as that was recommended as the better choice, being a fully chromatic instrument, but as I play mostly tunes in G and D (a lot of English Folk tunes are in these keys), would a D/G diatonic instrument suit me better?

I'm guessing that the D/G would be easier to start on, but might then hold me back if I get any good and want to be able to thrown in those accidentals that won't be available on the D/G.

I underststand that it's hard to switch once the choice is made, and I hear of people who went with D/G regretting their choice later, but not yet of anyone playing B/C who wishes they didn't.

As this is always going to be a secondary instrument to my fiddle, though, would I be better off taking the "easy" road of D/G, and accepting that there will be some tunes I can never play on the box?
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Cayden

Post by Cayden »

Csharp/D is your best option for Irish music. A lot of morris musicians stick with the D/G or C/F (I used to busk with a C/F long ago)
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Teri-K
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Post by Teri-K »

I play a 2 and ½ row B/C and am happy with the choice. You have to remember that on the B/C, you’re playing predominately on the inside row, which is the C row, using the outside row for ornamentation.

There’s debate on B/C versus C#/D and which is better. Both have benefits – the B/C allows for smoother playing with less bellows work. The C#/D requires more bellows work, but has more punch because of it.

Teri

P.S. You can play any tune you like on the box, regardless of key, it's the fingering/bellows that's the buggar :)
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Post by StevieJ »

I chose a C#/D for Irish music but I think it would also be easier to play English tunes in D and G on a C#/D than a B/C box - and the music would be punchier.

BTW "fully chromatic" needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Both C#/D and B/C systems are in theory chromatic, but each instrument is happiest in a fairly small range of keys. Keys with sharps = easier on a C#/D. Keys without sharps and with flats = easier on a B/C. But on either system once you get above 3 sharps or 3 flats you're stretching things a bit. Can be done, of course, but not so comfortably.

For example I'm told B/C players don't really like A major - Teri correct me if I'm wrong - nearly every note in the scale is on the pull.

D/G is great for English music. It would be an unusual choice for Irish music but not necessarily a bad one. The main drawback is that you would be limited to the same basic keys that you can easily play on a D whistle. The main advantage would be that you would have more flexibility regarding phrasing since you can get most of the notes in both bellows directions.

Dave Mallinson plays Irish music on a D/G and has written tutors for the instrument that explore cross-rowing and using the instrument for Irish music that are apparently good. Also you should have no trouble finding a good teacher for D/G in London.

There seems to be quite a lot of tutorial stuff around for B/C systems in Irish music. With a C#/D you're on your own though, nothing available and teachers might be harder to find than for B/C.

I had a great friend, now passed on, who played great Irish music on a D/G box and because of that I actually toyed with the idea of getting a D/G myself. But having got a C#/D I don't regret my decision for a minute.

Just to confuse the issue further there are even C#/D/G boxes available, but then you have extra expense, extra weight. If you are going to have three rows you might as well get another couple and have a continental chromatic button box that weighs 12kg + ... ;)

Steve
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Post by Teri-K »

StevieJ wrote:
For example I'm told B/C players don't really like A major - Teri correct me if I'm wrong - nearly every note in the scale is on the pull.

Steve
It certainly isn't my favorite, for that reason. The nice thing about my extra 1/2 row is it gives me option of using D and A on the push to get air back in the bellows. My least favorite is C major - far too much bellows work :wink:
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Post by Wombat »

I'd be inclined to go with a more-or-less chromatic instrument, Martin. As with a two row concertina, you might quickly get frustrated by the lack of notes if you buy a D/G. I know I would. I'm thinking of getting a button accordeon sometime but I can't decide between a B/C and a C#/D. I've heard great music played on both.
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Post by Martin Milner »

Wombat wrote:I'd be inclined to go with a more-or-less chromatic instrument, Martin. As with a two row concertina, you might quickly get frustrated by the lack of notes if you buy a D/G. I know I would. I'm thinking of getting a button accordeon sometime but I can't decide between a B/C and a C#/D. I've heard great music played on both.
I think you're right, and I should stick with the B/C. I know a fair few fiddle tunes requiring G# or F, and as those notes don't appear on the D/G, I'd get frustrated trying to play them.

My first concern was that I might find it harder to learn on a B/C, where either a D or G scale breaks over the two rows, but this is probably groundless, neither system is entirely natural to a simple fiddler (where push and pull don't change the note).

The second worry was that the D/G would be punchier for English music, or tunes in D and G specifically, but again maybe this doesn't really hold true - lots of tunes have runs that would be all pull or all push.

The nice man at Hobgoblin London was happy to change it if I wanted, though they don't have a D/G in stock at the moment (of the same make & price). I think I'll stick with the B/C and learn my English tunes on that. If Dave Mallinson can play Irish on a D/G, I can play English on a B/C. :D

Peter, the C#/D sound interesting, but they're rare enough over here that I'd be paying a lot more to get hold of one. Part of the problem is funds. I can see weight in all the ideas suggested, and thank you all! I may in a few months splash out on a (cheap) D/G to try that out, and see if I get more zing into the tunes. When I can play some tunes!
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Post by Ro3b »

I started out playing D/G and G/C boxes (Breton and Morris stuff; it was a whim), then when I got interested in playing the box in Irish music got a B/C, but switched to C#/D after a couple of years. I like the D box better for a few reasons: the basses make more sense, it's a lot easier for me to figure out tunes on the fly, I really love the thwack and drive that the box has in the common keys, and it's the tuning used by most of my favorite players. I do miss the B/C though; the notes all lie so comfortably under the fingers and it's takes less physical effort to play. If I luck into a really nice-but-absurdly- inexpensive B/C box, I might one day be tempted to switch back.

I actually found the quint boxes pretty frustrating to play because they're confined to just a couple of keys, and the large number of notes available on both the inside and outside row tended to be more confusing than helpful. Shrug. I suppose if Morris tunes were all I ever wanted to play, that would be fine, but the Irish tunings have tons more flexibility. All of which is to say I'd stick with the B/C if I were you.

I don't find A on the B/C (or B on the C#/D) that much of a hassle, myself -- I just have to make careful use of the air button. One of my favorite things to play in that key is Eoghan O'Sullivan's setting of the slow air "The Bog Deal Board." Long legato phrases, drones, chords, just beautiful.
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Post by TomB »

Ro3b wrote:I . One of my favorite things to play in that key is Eoghan O'Sullivan's setting of the slow air "The Bog Deal Board." Long legato phrases, drones, chords, just beautiful.


Is this posted anywhere? I mean, you, playing it.

All the Best, Tom
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Post by Martin Milner »

Ro3b wrote:when I got interested in playing the box in Irish music got a B/C, but switched to C#/D after a couple of years. I like the D box better for a few reasons: the basses make more sense, it's a lot easier for me to figure out tunes on the fly, I really love the thwack and drive that the box has in the common keys, and it's the tuning used by most of my favorite players. I do miss the B/C though; the notes all lie so comfortably under the fingers and it's takes less physical effort to play. If I luck into a really nice-but-absurdly- inexpensive B/C box, I might one day be tempted to switch back.
I presume by D box you mean C#/D, Rob? I'd love to try one, but I just haven't seen one around.
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Post by Ro3b »

Is this posted anywhere? I mean, you, playing it.

All the Best, Tom
Oh, good lord, no. Give me a few years. Eoghan's recording of it is on the Smoky Chimney cd.
I presume by D box you mean C#/D, Rob? I'd love to try one, but I just haven't seen one around.
Right, yeah, that's what I meant. You can get a feel for what the C#/D is like by transposing tunes down a step and playing them on your B/C, e.g. playing D tunes in C, G tunes in F, etc. Actually that's a lovely mellow sound in itself -- kind of that meditative Josephine Marsh/Peter Carberry vibe. The B/C and the C#/D are really the same instrument; I think choosing between them is just a matter of deciding how you like to play the common "Irish" keys.
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Post by lixnaw »

i started out on C#/D about ten months back. what i've heard is that your right hand has to move about more across the two rows and up and down on a B/C, on C#/D your right hand stays more in the same place, but you'll have to pull and push the bellows a lot more.
so i'd say it's handy to have long arms on a B/C. also B/C is spoken of as to be more chromatic friendly....
could that be the reason why almost everyone chooses B/C??

i just ordered Peter Browne's video on both styles, and it's the only tutorial that includes C#/D, i'm curious on the different styles of ornamentation now :P
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Post by Wombat »

I don't know if it's the same on accordeon as it is on concertina but the idea that you run out of breath on long legato runs with almost every note on the draw, as you do playing a concertina across the rows, is greatly exaggerated. Getting in more notes to the breath is partly a matter of technique and you will get better at it as you advance. At least, that's how it is on concertina. You also get better at sneaking a quick 'breath' when the opportunity arises.
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Post by StevieJ »

Wombat wrote:I don't know if it's the same on accordeon as it is on concertina but the idea that you run out of breath on long legato runs with almost every note on the draw, as you do playing a concertina across the rows, is greatly exaggerated. Getting in more notes to the breath is partly a matter of technique and you will get better at it as you advance. At least, that's how it is on concertina. You also get better at sneaking a quick 'breath' when the opportunity arises.
Yes I think it is the same on the accordion. I wasn't thinking purely in terms of technique though.

If you're playing dance tunes which, because of the key you're playing in, involve not much besides long legato phrases you're losing the punch and lift that is (apart from weight and the perversity factor) about the only advantage of a bisonorous (push-pull) system, don't you think?

Exploiting such keys for playing airs is a great idea, thanks for the hint Rob.
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Post by Martin Milner »

Well, well, well.

About a month after this thread ended, I switched my B/C for a D/G (and a much better quality box, though not without its occasional problems). 2 weeks after that I had joined a Morris side (Spring Grove, based in Kingston-upon-Thames), and have never looked back. So much for my idea of sticking with the B/C. :D

The D/G being the only real box choice for playing Morris tunes, I'm very glad I made the switch, as I now have a whole new set of friends, and a whole new hobby, as a result. I've been with the team since September, and am one of only three musicians in the side, so I feel I make a big contribution despite my small repertoire. We have another six or so dancers, of whom two mess about a bit on D/G Melodeon but don't play solo yet while the rest dance. I have half a dozen tunes I play for the dancers, and I also dance three dances while a fellow melodeon player takes the tune.

The box is certainly a fun instrument, being always there, in tune, and pretty easy to pick out a new tune on (providing it's in D or G, or course). I've been focussing on Morris tunes, but have a few tunebooks and recordings for when I'm ready to branch out.
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