ITM and Harmonic Minor Scale

[Crysania]

The seventh of the scale is the third note of the dominant chord, which is the chord built on the 5th note of the scale.

It might be easier to say that the seventh of the scale is three tones above the note the dominant is built on. To try to clarify...every major and minor chord is made up of three notes. A root, which is the basis of the chord (i.e. if we say C major, the root is C...in a B minor chord, the root is B), and a note three tones above it (three tones above C would be E, counting the C as 1...so C = 1, D =2, E =3)...and another note that is five tones above the root (five tones above C wouold be G, again counting C as 1...so C = 1, D = 2, E = 3, F = 4, G = 5)...so when we put those together our root (C), third (E) and fifth (G)...make up our C major chord (C E G). So when one talks about the THIRD of a chord, they mean the middle note of the chord...in the case of C major, they mean E.

~Crysania

[Bloomfield]

I hadn't noticed that this thread had revived. Crys, you're right, "third note" is confusing. I meant the note that is the third, or three tones up from the tonic. Thanks.

Thank you for your response Ben - I suspected as much. Still, as you say, someone else may have something more so I'll hang around.

Harmonic minor is really the result of cadence-based music (I - IV - V - I), because it imports the raised seventh into the minor scale, accounting for the major third in the dominant chord that is also the leading note into the tonic. I don't believe that ITM is built on western-art music and its cadence structure (although many people try to impose the cadence structur on ITM, including such low forms as piano accompanyists). Anyway, the absence of cadence-based harmonic structures explains why harmonic minor doesn't make much sense ITM and isn't of much use.

I am not able to understand this. These are my hurdles:-

1. You say, ..... imports the raised seventh ......
What is a raised 7th? The 7th in a major scale is a semitone below the tonic and the major scale is the referent for all the other scales.
The 7th cannot be raised in terms of the current 12 semitone division of the octave. The 7th can only be diminished.

"imports the raised seventh into the minor scale" is what I wrote. Minor scales (before you make them harmonic or melodic by importing the raised seventh) have a lowered seventh. If you prefer other terms for raised/lowered, I'm okay with that. It's good to know that the major scale is the referent for all other scales.

2. You say, ..... the dominant chord .....
And which do you consider is the dominant chord in, for example, G harmonic minor scale:-
G min; A min; C min; D maj. ; D#/Eb maj. or F#/Gb maj. ?
And why?

Look up tonic, dominant, and subdominant.

3. You say, .....the major third in the dominant chord .....
None of the chords obtained in a harmonic minor scale result in the 7th being the third note in the chord. What do you meamn by this?

Take the dominant. Build a triad on it. Make the third a major third. That note will be the seventh of scale. As an example: C-minor. The dominant is G, dominant chord is G-Bb-D. Raise the third to make it a major chord: G-Bnat-D. Bnat is the major third of the dominant chord and the (raised) seventh of C-minor, and by a wild and unexpected coincidence, it is also the leading note into the tonic and makes the cadence work.

4. You say, ....I don't believe that ITM is built on western-art music and its cadence structure (although many people try to impose the cadence structur on ITM, including such low forms as piano accompanyists). .....

And do you believe that ITM is built on a chord based system or is it, rather, modal (plainsong) in origins and development (before many people imposed the chordal emphasis in their interpretation, including such forms as guitar accompaniment)?

I believe that ITM is neither chord-based, nor that originates in plainsong. Which is not to say that there is no harmonic structure to it. I think there is, but this harmonic structure is difficult or impossible to explain in the terms of cadence-based Western art music.

5. You say, ..... the absence of cadence-based harmonic structures explains why harmonic minor doesn't make much sense [in] ITM and isn't of much use .....

Can you use this rationale to explain why Dorian Scale is not or little used in ITM? Or should I start a separate topic for that?

The Dorian Scale is not used in ITM because there is no such thing as a "Dorian Scale." (Please note that the major scale is the referent for all other scales.) As for the dorian mode, you can use its presence in ITM as indicator that ITM isn't cadence based. Because, for instance, a dominant chord in D-dorian does not contain a major third (but a minor one), and for this reason doesn't lend itself to a I-IV-V7-I cadence structure, which requires the leading tone (which happens to be the major third of the dominant chord and the raised seventh of the tonic).

P.S.:
I think it is going to be difficult to cross these hurdles without understanding the cadence. That requires understanding the circle of fifths. You can read about both but until you do a considerable amount of writing out four-part harmony, it's going to be hard to understand.

[m ó c]

this might be a bit over the top here but there again it also may be of some help.
it is based on Brendan Breathnach's analysis of the structure of itm.


Irish music, tunes and airs, do not always close on the note expected by someone trained in the classical art music of the west, because of this it is difficult to fit Irish melodies into the strict major and minor divisions of this music. Itm may end on any of four notes. These notes are do, re, so, and la, and these give rise to four scales or modes. The names of the corresponding church modes are given in brackets

1. Do mode c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c (Ionian)
2. Re mode d-e-f-g-a-b-c-d (Dorian)
3. So mode g-a-b-c-d-e-f-g (Mixolydian)
4. La mode a-b-c-d-e-f-g-a (Aeolian)

the important thing here is to look at the positions of the semi-tones (in bold) in these scales.
transcribing the four scales to end on the same note these scales will look like this (alterd notes in bold)

1. Do mode c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c
2. Re mode c-d-eflat-f-g-a-bflat-c
3. So mode c-d-e-f-g-a-bflat-c
4. La mode c-d-eflat-f-g-aflat-bflat-c

something like 60% of Irish music belongs to the Do scale.
around 15% belongs in the So mode
the Re mode accounts for some 10%
and the La mode is the most infrequently met
there are a few tunes which mix two modes usually the first part in the So and the second part in Do.
these are all heptatonic, or 7 note, scales, but hexatonic(6 note), and pentatonic(5 note) scales also occur in irish music.

1. hep. c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c
2. hex. c-d-e-f-g-a-(b)-c
3. pen. c-d-e-(f)-g-a-(b)-c
the notes in brackets are the notes which do not occur in these scales.

most traditional tunes are played in keys with one sharp or two sharps so by applying the principles outlined above to the music

last note of melody
one # mode two #’s
G Do D
A Re E
D So A
E La B

the final notes D, E, and A occur on both sides of the table, if the note C is missing from a tune ending on D it is difficult to say to which scale it belongs, similarly with E and A, the absence of a C or C# in an accented position makes it hard to allocate the tune to a definite mode.

there has not been anything yet about accidentals, but there are two such notes which occur in irish music C# and F-natural . C# falls usually on a weak position in any of the melodies in the G or one sharp series, in the D or two sharp series it is always sharp no matter its position.
F-natural occurs only on accented positions in tunes of the G series. the actual note is sharper than the equal tempered F-natural and is played by sliding up from E towards F#.
C-natural in an accented position belongs to the G series and on the pipes is halfway between B and C it is not quite the note that occurs on the piano keyboard..
these two notes are of course the two notes absent from the pentatonic scale and this could account for their ambiguous character.

Ó Canainn offers the following rules for inflection in ITM

1. the 7th is the most commonly inflected note, the 3rd and occasionally the 4th may also be inflected
2. if the infectible note rises stepwise it is sharpened.
3. if it is the highest note of a group it is flattened.
4. in the group of notes 875 it can be either but is more often sharp.

now i don't know if this will help anyone play better but it should go along way to demonstrate that the flute in question is not the best one for the job.

anyway i need a stiff drink after all that

slán

mick ó c

[talasiga]

...............
The Dorian Scale is not used in ITM because there is no such thing as a "Dorian Scale.".....

Scale and mode have many different meanings and some of them meet. It is this co-alescence of meaning that allows me to interchange the expression Dorian Mode with Dorian Scale.

see this music dictionary site, for example

Mode - Any scalewise arrangement of pitches; more generally, the term refers to the patterns upon which medieval music was structured, the patterns which preceded the development of major and minor scales and tonality.

QED (unless you are trying to tell me that the Dorian Mode does not contain a series of notes spaced 2:1:2:2:2:1:2 which is by definition scalewise)

[talasiga]

.......
Take the dominant. Build a triad on it. Make the third a major third. That note will be the seventh of scale. As an example: C-minor. The dominant is G, dominant chord is G-Bb-D. Raise the third to make it a major chord: G-Bnat-D. Bnat is the major third of the dominant chord and the (raised) seventh of C-minor, and by a wild and unexpected coincidence, it is also the leading note into the tonic and makes the cadence work.
....

All you are saying here is that the minor chord which uses the perfect 5th (the dominant) as its root can be made into a major chord by raising its second note (which you call the third) by a semitone. This is the same for all the chordal triads. The root note and the 3rd note of the triad are 7 semitones apart (the tonic/dominant relationship) and the note between them is 4 semitones from the root in the case of a major chord and 3 semitones from the root note in case of a minor chord.

Then you say that, even though a natural minor scale has a diminished 7th, we can utilise a major 7th in its dominant chord for the purposes of your cadence. Well you could do the same with the ready made dominant major chord in the harmonic minor scale also. So you rationale for the absence of the latter scale in ITM is inconsistent.

It is not that I don't belive you that the harmonic minor is not there in ITM, its your reasoning that I am finding unhelpful.

Thanks.

[Bloomfield]

Well you could do the same with the ready made dominant major chord in the harmonic minor scale also. So you rationale for the absence of the latter scale in ITM is inconsistent.

It is not that I don't belive you that the harmonic minor is not there in ITM, its your reasoning that I am finding unhelpful.

Thanks.

I am trying to tell you that there is a reason why there is a raised seventh in harmonic minor, it's meant to achieve something. I am further trying to show that this reason does not exist in ITM (to the same degree).

[Bloomfield]

...............
The Dorian Scale is not used in ITM because there is no such thing as a "Dorian Scale.".....

Scale and mode have many different meanings and some of them meet. It is this co-alescence of meaning that allows me to interchange the expression Dorian Mode with Dorian Scale.

see this music dictionary site, for example

Mode - Any scalewise arrangement of pitches; more generally, the term refers to the patterns upon which medieval music was structured, the patterns which preceded the development of major and minor scales and tonality.

QED (unless you are trying to tell me that the Dorian Mode does not contain a series of notes spaced 2:1:2:2:2:1:2 which is by definition scalewise)

I wonder whether it's meaning or ignorance that co-alesces here. After all, even the dictionary you quote distinquishes between scales and modes.

Seriously, though: did you see that "... which precedes the development of major and minor scales and tonality"? What do you think they mean by that and why wouldn't tonality have existed during the age of modes? Perhaps tonality means more than "pitch"? I might even hazard the guess that it has to do with the (beloved) cadence, harmonic movement, and all that stuff you find unhelpful.

[Cynth]

I have been wondering about the use of the words mode and scale. I have read what has been said and understood bits. I wonder if someone could tell me if what I am saying in my own words would be correct even if very crude. I wouldn't be able to understand anything complicated, so just tell me to read more if this is way off. So is this roughly right:

"Scale" is a term only used when discussing Western European classical music and the particular things they do with the scales they use. These scales are what enable them to do these things because of how the scales are built.
"Mode" is used when discussing non-Western European music. Even though some of the modes (like Ionian and Aeolian, I believe) are the same arrangement of intervals as the major and minor scales in Western European music, these notes are not used in the same way as they are in Western European music, and so they are referred to as modes.



One book I have said that the modes were modes used in the Catholic Church and that is how they came to be used in Irish music.

I must say that eric helped me a lot in answering someone's question about transposing from one key to another. He spent a lot of time on his answer and didn't seem the least bit gruff to me.

Would you use the word "key" when talking about modes----what do you say to indicate the note that the mode starts on? The key of D Ionian? Is "key" a word that should only be used with scales?

Sorry about the low level of understanding here, but I am going to try to read more about this.

[Bloomfield]

"Scale" is a term only used when discussing Western European classical music and the particular things they do with the scales they use. These scales are what enable them to do these things because of how the scales are built.
"Mode" is used when discussing non-Western European music. Even though some of the modes (like Ionian and Aeolian, I believe) are the same arrangement of intervals as the major and minor scales in Western European music, these notes are not used in the same way as they are in Western European music, and so they are referred to as modes.

I think you have it basically right. I don't know about "non-Western European music," though. What I do know is that modes derive from old Greek tetrachords (notice that the modes bear the names of Greek regions: Dorian, Phrygian, Ionian, etc.) and that they belong in medieval church music.

The problem in this particular thread is that, in order to understand, it's not enough to count full and half steps in a series of seven notes. Once you have a musical piece, you are forming chords and progressions and these relate to each other. Second, intonation matters a lot, and to understand the difference between modes and scales you have to understand intonation. For example, if you take D major (just intoned, that is not like your piano), and you build E Dorian on it, the second step (F#) is going to be rather flat compared to what you find on your piano. If you take C major (again just intoned), and build a Phrygian mode on it (that is, the mode starting on the third note of a major scale, in this case again E), you are going to get a different F#.

Of course you can just ignore all that and use your piano; but the modern piano tuning is significantly younger than the modes, and so are the scales on your piano produced by the modern tunings. I've hinted at this before, but I think you have to even be careful in speaking about Dorian mode etc in ITM. It's a convenient shorthand, for sure, but it should not be taken to mean that ancient choral music developed into the Old Bush and the Hag at the Churn, somehow. Musical meaning works within the parameters of the tradition or style you're operating in. "Harmonic minor" means something, and it is this meaning more than a series of steps and half-steps that sheds light on the question whether "there is a harmonic minor scale in ITM."

[Cynth]

Thank you. I definitely need to do some reading. I think I will concentrate on the idea that there is more to it than whole and half steps and that the method of tuning instruments practiced within a tradition of music will affect how these series of notes actually sound.

[talasiga]

(EXTRACT 1)
............
I am trying to tell you that there is a reason why there is a raised seventh in harmonic minor, it's meant to achieve something. I am further trying to show that this reason does not exist in ITM (to the same degree).


(EXTRACT 2)
...............
Musical meaning works within the parameters of the tradition or style you're operating in. "Harmonic minor" means something, and it is this meaning more than a series of steps and half-steps that sheds light on the question whether "there is a harmonic minor scale in ITM."

I think you are under the misapprehension that (just to please you hair splitting here:) the mode whose scale is comprehended by the harmonic minor scale is a creation of symphonic (and harmonic) western music of the last few hundred years. The current name and usage of it may be premised on a harmonic end but the scale has existed in melodic traditions for aeons and under various names. I know it is used in Eastern European folk music and I have heard it in Middle Eastern Music and the Indian Music Raag Kirwaani is comprehended by the harmonic minor scale. So the note relationships covered by this scale do not only work within the parameters of the European classical music.

You say you have no experience of Non Western traditions. I take it that would include ancient Celtic traditions (like most of us) and would not be aware of the odd pockets of more ancient song tradition that may be comprehended by this scale in ITM.

I really don't expect to find any songs in harmonic minor scale in ITM. I was just curious. I did not have the little flute made with this in mind. I have plenty of major scale flutes to play Irish music with.

[Bloomfield]

(EXTRACT 1)
............
I am trying to tell you that there is a reason why there is a raised seventh in harmonic minor, it's meant to achieve something. I am further trying to show that this reason does not exist in ITM (to the same degree).


(EXTRACT 2)
...............
Musical meaning works within the parameters of the tradition or style you're operating in. "Harmonic minor" means something, and it is this meaning more than a series of steps and half-steps that sheds light on the question whether "there is a harmonic minor scale in ITM."

I think you are under the misapprehension that (just to please you hair splitting here:) the mode whose scale is comprehended by the harmonic minor scale is a creation of symphonic (and harmonic) western music of the last few hundred years. The current name and usage of it may be premised on a harmonic end but the scale has existed in melodic traditions for aeons and under various names. I know it is used in Eastern European folk music and I have heard it in Middle Eastern Music and the Indian Music Raag Kirwaani is comprehended by the harmonic minor scale. So the note relationships covered by this scale do not only work within the parameters of the European classical music.

True enough. But the name "harmonic minor" only works within those parameters (and it's more than a name), I think.

About those ancient Celtic musical traditions. I wasn't aware that they have been preserved, and no, I certainly don't know anything about them if anything can be known about them. Here is a hunch I have, and I fear it is irreverant: I don't think Irish traditional music is in any meaningful sense "Celtic." I think the music developed in Ireland, or spread there from other parts of Europe, long after Celtic culture had life in it; I think that ITM is not dissimilar to folk traditions that existed all over Europe. They vanished mostly in Europe, replaced by Western Art Music. But Ireland was so remote and so impenetrable that the music remained there longer than elsewhere. Even so, I doubt the music is much older than three or fourhundred years. Reels arrived from Scotland a few hundred years ago. Jigs, perhaps the oldest form of tune in Ireland, may have come from the mainland as gigues. Hornpipes arrived from England in the 18th century... It's all a hunch, mind you: I don't know.

[talasiga]

........
Here is a hunch I have, and I fear it is irreverant: I don't think Irish traditional music is in any meaningful sense "Celtic." I think the music developed in Ireland, or spread there from other parts of Europe, long after Celtic culture had life in it; I think that ITM is not dissimilar to folk traditions that existed all over Europe. They vanished mostly in Europe, replaced by Western Art Music. But Ireland was so remote and so impenetrable that the music remained there longer than elsewhere.
.......

This is an interesting nub that could begin a fresh topic. I hear Scandinavian folk music on government radio from time to time and it somewhat evokes the same sensation as ITM for me. Scandinavia is relatively remote as is Brittany and some pockets of Iberia.

However it is my hunch that there is an ancient Celtic root that informs the aesthetic sensation of these traditions even if their current technical musical forms are not as ancient. I do not have the wherewithal to prove this.

I am intrigued by the strong, almost instinctual, emotional appeal that this music holds for me.

Happy Hunching!

[talasiga]

I was interested to see that the jig,
the White Petticoat shifts from E Aeolian to E Kirwani or E natural minor to to E harmonic minor in certain section.

I am sure I have heard this played on fiddle sometimes where all the 7ths are raised, meaning all the D are D#. Such interpretations of the piece render it totally harmonic minor.

(For those of you who are pupils of Bloomfield and get easily confused, my reference to 7ths is a reference to the the 7th interval in relation to the tonic. A piece in E Aeolian will have D as its 7th. That is a minor or flatted 7th interval because it is two semitones from the tonic whereas a major 7th is only one semitone from the tonic. You will notice that in the above notation there are some instances of D# in a scale that is otherwise E Aeolian ie E F# G A B C D E+ with the effect that there is a scalar shift from E natural minor to E harmonic minor E F# G A B C D# E+)

Anyone know any other ITM pieces that have a shift from natural minor to harmonic minor?

[Ro3b]

I was interested to see that the jig, the White Petticoat shifts from E Aeolian to E Kirwani or E natural minor to to E harmonic minor in certain section.

Well, sometimes it does. I originally learned it:

A|Bed cBA|GFE B,EG|FBB cBB|eBB cBA|

but I've often heard it play the way you describe (notably by the box player Patty Furlong):

A|Bed cBA|GFE B,EG|FBB cBB|^dBB cBA|

My guess is that this was a variation some player somewhere introduced, and others picked it up and started playing the tune that way. Another example of this (though not ITM) is the harmonic-minorizing D# that Solas played in the second part of "Les Poulles Huppees" aka "Crested Hens." This is the way I usually hear the tune played now.

There are surely other instances of harmonic minor creeping into ITM as variations. Bloomfield is correct that ITM isn't based in western art music, but it would be naive to think that it has remained uninfluenced by that tradition for all this time, and in the hands of experienced players things tend to get pretty fuzzy.