high end or just expensive?

Whistlepeg · Post by **Whistlepeg** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:16 pm

I agree with Peter. When somebody is charging a lot of money for an item, you would expect that the item has been tested before it is sent out to make sure that it works properly and well.
Individually made, "high-end" whistles should be played by the maker - or a good player - before they are sold. It is fine to say that a maker is willing to take back an instrument and "fix" it, but a deficient instrument should not be sold by the maker in the first place.
I have played many different high-end/expensive whistles and have rarely found one that could compete with a good Generation for playability, traditional sound and value for money, which is what I am looking for in an instrument.
Sue

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:13 pm

To be honest, one distinction I'd make between "high-end" and "expensive" IS the involvment with the maker. I don't have a single high-end whistle that wasn't purchased directly from the person who made it. If I were to buy a high-ender second-hand, I would expect that, somewhere along the line, someone actually had a transaction with the person who conceived, designed, built and tested that instrument. If it came off an assembly line, I don't consider it "high-end," no matter how much it cost. I would be shocked to find what I consider a "high-end" whistle in a shop, unless it was a consignment.

I have four "high-enders" and one "mid-range"...each a fine instrument, in-tune, with no problems whatsoever. Each came directly from the maker. Each has its own characteristics that makes it special. I have many "low-enders" too, and they're nice enough instruments, but none comes close in either workmanship or tonal quality to the "high-enders." It's like the difference between driving my Toyota Tercel and my Sable...the Tercel is a perfectly nice, reliable car, but there are things about the Sable that make it a special pleasure to drive. You don't need any of those features to drive well, happily and safely, but they can make driving more enjoyable. That's what I expect from a high-end whistle, and so far, I haven't been disappointed.

Redwolf

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:19 pm

I'm jumping into this rather late, but there are a couple of points I'd like to make.

First, if I'm not mistaken, the Euro is a little over 1:1 on the dollar. In that case, the whistle Peter describes would seem to me to be more midrange than expensive.

Ne'ertheless, I don't think that high-end and mass-produced are compatible. To me, for a whistle to be high-end, it would need (besides cost) a high degree of hand production and tuning. If that were the case, I'd expect a much higher initial satisfaction rate than for a mass-production model, no matter who made it.

boomerang · Post by **boomerang** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:30 am

This debate could get quite complicated,
but here are my thoughts,
In my industry, quality is defined as fitness for the customers purpose,
That is by way of comparison, if a person bought a generation at the going rate, and it turned out to be a better then average whistle, the owner is happy then by definition the customer has bought a quality instrument that best suits his purpose. but the quality parameter has been set.

On the other hand the next whistle this person bought is less then good, and does not meet the customers requirements, the customer is less then happy, even though the price may have been comparable and the whistle is then percieved to be of lesser quality.

Consider a maker, the owner of the business has gone to considerable expence to set up their shop, and initially has but a great deal of time and effort into their endevour.
consider the maker has to make a living out of this endevour, simple maths will dictate how many whistles the maker has to produce in x amount of time to stay viable and in business.

Customers always want highest quality and at lowest reasonable price, this is human nature,
the maker sets the whistle price in relation to materials, tools and their replacement, wages, packaging and communication costs.

the maker does the best he can with the best of the skills he has,and the time frame he has allowed himself,
I doubt anyone deliberately goes out of their way to make crap products, (generiaized comment)
the maker will assume if no complaints are recieved that he is meeting quality parameters, if sales are good and steady, then all is well,
if the occiasonal customer recieves a whistle that does not meet the customers expectation of quality, then of course the maker will try to satisfy the customers needs,
the point i wish to make is that many experienced musicians have a musical "ear" that is highly refined and only the most suitable quality will suffice, for someone who's hearing is less alert the whistle may be the best they have ever had, its all relative to individual taste,

My passion over many years has been the use, and collection of knives, (my tools of trade and sporting interests) i frequently come across many high end knives that to me would be totally useless and inefficient, but my opinions are highly refines as to what works and what doesnt, many lower end knives (mid range) actually perform as well and sometimes better, and i am less likely to be financially hurt if the knife gets lost or stolen,
Can you draw a comparison here?
its all going to be relative to a individuals definition of quality or their fitness for purpose at a set price.

we as customers have the right to either accept, reject or complain about a products performance, if a maker is truely putting out a crap product they will not be in business for long.

Someone mentioned a Doolin whistle as being really poor quality, my argument is if a parent decides to buy a 5 year old a whistle as a present, the child may chew, bend , tread on the whistle or throw it at the cat,
to the parent it was no great financial loss, to the kid it made noise...always a good thing for a kid, and was a ready projectile, in other words a quality product,
Just my thoughts
Regards
David

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:09 am

Chuck_Clark wrote:
First, if I'm not mistaken, the Euro is a little over 1:1 on the dollar. In that case, the whistle Peter describes would seem to me to be more midrange than expensive.

A few weeks ago I sent off a money order for a 85 dollar whistle which worked out at 75 euro, fees for the bank including.

The whistle I talked about starting this thread would work out around 80 dollar.

A Sindt whistle is in that range, I would call that a high end whistle, I still think it's a lot of money for a whistle but would't really call it expensive. Whistles above that pricerange I would find [too] expensive unless they had some extraordinary quality to them.

Jim Wright · Post by **Jim Wright** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:41 am

Have been in this only a fairly short time. Started with two different types of "off the shelf" whistles. Had problems and questions on both .. no one to ask or offer suggestions or "fixes"other than this board.

Bought an Elf Song Combo ... and have written Sandy several time with questions - each time receiving an answer or suggetion that fixed or allowed me to play the note/range in question (mine were all playing quetions - the whistles are great - just operator trouble!)

Ordered a "white cap" - same thing - Mack wanted to know what it was going to be used on .. and then made me one that did what he said it would do and I was/am very happy with it.

In each case - I had someone to talk to .. someone to answer the questions. To me .. that is the difference between off the shelf and dealing with a maker.

I have another whistle on order now - again from a maker and in this case was asked many more questions than I have the musical knowledge to answer about what I wanted the whistle "set up" to do. However, his reputation allows me to be able to tell him that I trust his judgement and know that it will be right when I get it and believe if there is ever a problem .. he will fix it. He also warned me - in advance - that this was a "Demanding instrument" and that it would take some time to be able to get the best out of it. That could have cost him a sale ......... but he still ... offered the "out" and I appreciate it.

I like the personal touch - and the accountability. Service and customer relations are gone in most of America today but it is still alive and well in the whistle building industry.

Just my 2 cents,

Jim

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:27 am

Whistlepeg wrote:Individually made, "high-end" whistles should be played by the maker - or a good player - before they are sold. It is fine to say that a maker is willing to take back an instrument and "fix" it, but a deficient instrument should not be sold by the maker in the first place.
Sue

A maker chiming in here...
I most definitely agree with Whistlepeg. A machine churning out Generations is one thing, but we whistlemakers have hands-on on each and every instrument that we make and there is really no excuse for sending out junk. I've had several whistles returned to me for revoicing to a player's preference, but never because the whistle is bad. I think that most whistle makers probably follow my policy of never sending out a whistle that I personally wouldn't want to own-- and pay my price for!!
I also agree that a good "cheapie" whistle is a perfectly wonderful instrument. I have several of them and really enjoy playing them. The whistle is truly "the people's instrument" since just about anyone can afford an excellent musical instument for very little money. When you pay the big bucks for an instrument,you have every right to have a LOT of the maker's time and care put into your investment. If you're not happy with that maker's work, INSIST that it be made right.

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:06 am

As many know, I am a believer in inexpensive whistles. I also believe you have to be able to pick the one you want from a large number of samples. You don't necessarily have to play them to pick a good one. I have most of the inexpensive brands and I find all of them playable but you have to know how to play them.

I am a firm believer that any whistle is only as good as the person playing it. If Peter can't play the whistle in question it is definitely a bad whistle.

I have only bought one whistle so far in that price range, my Alba Q1. It is exactly what I was looking for and is worth every penny I paid for it. If it had come in with the problems Peter described I would have been very disappointed and I would not buy another one. However, the experience was so good I will be ordering another before many months.

Here were I am there is not much chance of trying a whistle before buying. Visual inspection has been a very acceptable way of picking whistles for me. I have a couple of them that are troublesome but they will be tamed eventually.

BTW I checked yesterday on the price of a whistle and the dollar to euro rate was 1.2 to 1.

Ron

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:54 am

I think that a major contributing factor to 'high end' whistles of questionable quality is the pressure many makers feel to keep up with the demand for their instruments... especially those who sell through 3rd party retailers.
Even a small-time maker with a simple workshop in their garage or basement can be subjected to the same pressure to keep up with the demand for their instruments as a world renown maker if they have to supply a popular 3rd party retailer... or several, as is often the case.
I can't speak for other makers, and maybe my own feelings will change in time, but I take great pleasure in sitting down and running through a few tunes on each new whistle I complete.
Getting to be the very first person to play a newly completed whistle is one of the perks of being a whistle maker!
While I'm certainly no great musician, this simple practice should ensure that no 'lemons' ever leave my workshop... and also keep me from getting too rusty from neglecting to practice playing!

I too have received a few 'high end' whistles of questionable quality, so I know that 'lemons' do sometimes make it into circulation... though I can certainly understand how anyone, regardless of their good intentions, can sometimes make mistakes.
That's not to say that it's never a case of simple neglect on the part of the maker, because sometimes it certainly is... but I believe most makers of 'high end' whistles take too much pride in their work to let something like simple neglect tarnish their good reputation.

John S · Post by **John S** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:40 am

I've made a few Whistles using tweaked Generation heads and various types of tubing, even sold 2, and I'm very careful to get the intonation right, especially C nat, which is problematic on some whistles.
I'd never sell one that I had not hand tuned and tested thoroughly.
It's very rewarding to see someone enjoy playing an instrument you've made.

John S

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:06 am

Good topic. I agree that many makers of handmade instruments are inconsistent in what they turn out. Interestingly, some midrange whistles are far more consistent. Take Burkes, for example. They are made by CNC (computerized) machines, and hand-assembled. They are reliably good. The hand-voiced whistles of high-end makers like Abell and Copeland, for example, are unfortunately not always good. I don't like cheap Gen-style whistles, because I can't stand a whistle with even ONE raspy note, and I love good handmade whistles. But you do have to go through a bunch sometimes to get a really good one, and that's not a good thing. I also agree that some makers develop good reputations because newbies who have played only cheapies pick up one of the whistles made by said makers and praise it. Newer Newbies believe those newbies, and they get on board, not knowing that there are much better choices out there. There are several respected makers who, in my opinion, turn out pure crap. But I keep my mouth shut (in public, anyway).

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:29 am

I have been guilty more than once of getting all happy with a new whistle and singing its praises before i put it to test properly. There have been more than one case when my initial impression of a whistle changed (for the worse or for the better).

Now i think that at a very minimum i should play a whistle heavily if not exclusively for at least 3 weeks before i tell people if i like it or not. Likewise, this should include at least a few long practice sessions (do you still like that whistle after playing it for an hour?) and should include at least a couple of sessions with other musicians (how does the intonation work out in a group, does it pop out but still in a pleasant way?).

I've found that tooting a whistle and actually playing reels and jigs in it are different things. A whistle may sound perfect when you play a few scales, but may still annoy you to death when you play real music with it.

Right now the only whistles i feel i can "endorse" are the Silkstone alloy high D, the Cillian O'Briain "improved" Feadog/Generation Eb frankenwhistle, and the Water Weasel D (but the WW is not an easy whistle to play, and the production is not always consistent). I have a set of Reyburns that are growing on me, though... ask me again in a few weeks.

I think watching what the pros play is very valid. It shouldn't be the only criterium, since there are so many whistle makers, and only that many pros, and these guys, once they find something that works they tend to stick with it, even if it's Generation. But if you see someone who plays the same whistle for hundreds of hours a week, at least you can assume that the whistle doesn't irritate him/her.

jkrazy52 · Post by **jkrazy52** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:43 am

The part about this entire thread that is refreshing is the realization that great players can get bad whistles -- it not just me! I have a whistle (~$80 USD) that a B' is nearly impossible on - for me. So, maybe it's not totally my playing after all. I had an offer from the maker to correct the problem. At time I didn't realize this was a standard practice and refused ... I thought it was only my playing.

Oh well, live and learn!

~Judy

tuaz · Post by **tuaz** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:53 am

I'm curious - are Chieftains completely mass manufactured or is there still some individual testing or hand voicing of each instrument? (I've always wondered abt this; it's got nothing to do with Peter's bad whistle which is not a Chieftain, I think)

I ask because:

1. I understand that the info on the C&F main site is not updated, and there are some changes to the whole Chieftain line.

2. to me a Chieftain is considered high-end, whether mass-manufactured or not, simply because of its price. The exchange rate with the GBP or Euro is very unfavourable to me.

To me, value for money is important. In that respect, the question of whether it's hand-made or mass manufactured or somewhere in between is not really the main issue.

However, the more expensive it is, the more I certainly hope the maker got it right the first time. I'm in Singapore. There are no whistles sold here, and I can't try anything I buy. I can't afford to keep sending whistles back to a far-off country to get things fixed. The shipping or postage charges, and the time wasted, would make it not worth the while.

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:44 am

I keep reading about sending back for voicing to suit a particular requirement. Can somebody enlighten me. What is this voicing? Clearly holes can be made a bit bigger. Bits can be sanded off but to what end and how exactly. There's lots of info on tweaking which is pretty clear to me but voicing is different, more esoteric, a secret held only by the initiated???

Brian

Chiff and Fipple Forums

high end or just expensive?

expensive or inexpensive or something like that