OT: concertinas again - Anglo or English?

[claudine]

Let's talk about concertinas. I know that the standard instrument for irish trad is Anglo C/G (?).
But what are the pros and cons of an English Concertina if it will be played for general purpose, sometimes irish trad, sometimes anything else, just for fun. Can you play chords? Can you play a bass line on the left hand while playing a melody on the right hand (like a piano)? Is the instrument chromatic, means: can you play in all keys?

[Caj]

Hi,

It sounds like you are looking for a Duet concertina, rather than an Anglo or an English. A Duet allows someone to play chords and melody at the same time, and some are designed to play equally well in any key.

On an English it is hard to play melody+chords, because the melody ping-pongs between the left and right sides. On the Anglo it is hard to play melody+chords because you use your entire left hand to play melody, and all the low notes are on the left side.

All 3 types of concertinas are technically chromatic, but it is much harder to play in uncommon keys on an Anglo. An English box has buttons arranged just like lines and spaces on a musical staff, and playing in any key is pretty straightforward. I never played an English though, so I only know this second-hand.

As always, concertina.net has all sorts of information on all three kinds of boxes.

Caj

[Wombat]

Like Caj, I play Anglo and what I know about Duets and English instruments is secondhand, although I have heard and watched good players play both.

Anglo is the instrument of choice of most Irish players. I used to think that this was mere accident and prejudice when I believed the myth that fluent modern players play across the rows to more or less subvert the instrument's natural push and draw tendencies. Now I know better-frequent changes in bellows direction are no barrier to speed and fluency if you practice hard enough.

One thing that is quite easy and common on Anglo is playing a melody in octaves with the left hand an octave below the right. Another thing which isn't too hard is playing spare chordal passages from time to time for emphasis, in much the same way an uilleann piper will make sparing but effective use of the regulators. Also, when you get to virtuoso level, you can mix melody with complex chordal work and bass lines so long as you don't want contrasting rhythms from the two lines. You can also play melody freely against a drone on any note that is available both both on press and draw.

If all this is beginning to sound daunting, maybe you should get a duet or an English. I really think the prejudice against them in Irish music, to the extent that it actually exists, is not really founded on anything musical. That contradicts what I said earlier but only superficially. If you get really good on, say, English, you might have a style all your own which emphasises things that can't be done easily on Anglo while omitting some things that can. All sorts of instruments that aren't used in Irish music could be; I think melodica could sound great but I'm not yet game to bring one to a session.

[Zubivka]

Thanks for the explanation, Wombat.

Please excuse the layman's further question, but what difference is there really between an Anglo concertina and a bandoneon ?

Does the Anglo also have two "voices" (reeds) per tone?

[Wombat]

Thanks for the explanation, Wombat.

Please excuse the layman's further question, but what difference is there really between an Anglo concertina and a bandoneon ?

I'm not sure about the difference exactly. I vaguely remember Richard Evans remarking to me that bandoneons have the least logical layout of all button boxes. I think he suggested that they sort of started out logical but limited and people just added new keys on an ad hoc basis wherever there was room. Something like a button box designed by a committee. But I might be misremembering.

Does the Anglo also have two "voices" (reeds) per tone?

No, only one reed. That's the defining difference between concertinas and accordeons. Accordeon reeds and concertina reeds are also made and set differently but recently concertina makers have taken to using the much more readily available and therefore cheaper accordeon reeds to build concertinas. We purists prefer the real thing but I honestly don't know how easy it would be to tell the difference with a well-made accordeon reeded instrument. I believe a friend of Dale makes instruments like this that are well regarded but I've never heard one. I think Avanutria plays one like this too.

[Lorenzo]

Go Anglo, Claudine. It's the same principle as a harmonica, basically, only with buttons. You can play chords and melody at the same time, at times, you just have to work them in at the right time, like on the off beat.

[Doc Jones]

I play anglo and quite enjoy it (I'm not much good ).

I recently bought (should be here tomorrow in fact) a Hayden system duet concertina from the Button Box so that I could better do exactly what you are talking about (playing chords on the left and melody on the right).


Both the English and duet are fully chromatic and play the same note on push and pull. The Anglos are diatonic and play a different note on push than on pull.

For IrTrad music I think an anglo is great. If you want to do anything with lots of accidentals you'll want English or Duet.


If you want to be fully chromatic and do serious chording I think a duet is the only way to go and a Hayden-style duet specifically.


Doc

[Doc Jones]

Here's a link to the Button Box. The Hayden duet is at the bottem of the page.


http://www.buttonbox.com/newtina.html


Cheers,

Doc

[csharpd]

Does the Anglo also have two "voices" (reeds) per tone?

No, only one reed. That's the defining difference between concertinas and accordeons.

No, the number of reeds per note is not the defining difference. Bandoneons, which are closely associated with tango music, have multiple reeds per note; so do "chemnitzer" concertinas, which are found especially in the upper Midwest U.S. and are favored for polkas. Both bandoneons and chemnitzers are concertinas. See http://www.klezmusic.com/sbx-info/sbx-bando.html for more on these types of concertinas.

And there are some button accordions that have only a single reed per note. Sharon Shannon has been known to play one, a Castagnari Lilly.

What distinguishes concertinas from accordions? (1) Absence of prearranged chords; and, (2) buttons that travel in the same direction as the bellows (on accordions the buttons travel perpendicularly to the bellows).

Accordeon reeds and concertina reeds are also made and set differently but recently concertina makers have taken to using the much more readily available and therefore cheaper accordeon reeds to build concertinas. We purists prefer the real thing but I honestly don't know how easy it would be to tell the difference with a well-made accordeon reeded instrument. I believe a friend of Dale makes instruments like this that are well regarded but I've never heard one. I think Avanutria plays one like this too.

There are only a few people making true concertina reeds today, and all of their output goes into their own brand of instruments. In other words, it's not possible for someone else to build the rest of a traditional concertina and buy the reeds from a reedmaker.

The accordion-reeded concertinas do sound different, and their reeds do not typically speak as quickly and subtly as true concertina reeds. But most casual listeners would not likely appreciate the difference.

Dale's concertina-making friend is Bob Tedrow, of Homewood Instruments in Alabama. Avanutria has an accordion-reeded concertina made by Frank Edgley of Ontario. And I have a Morse, made by the Button Box in Amherst, Massachusetts. All are well-regarded among people who want to play anglo concertina without investing several thousand dollars and/or several years on a wait list.

[Wombat]

Does the Anglo also have two "voices" (reeds) per tone?

No, only one reed. That's the defining difference between concertinas and accordeons.

No, the number of reeds per note is not the defining difference. Bandoneons, which are closely associated with tango music, have multiple reeds per note; so do "chemnitzer" concertinas, which are found especially in the upper Midwest U.S. and are favored for polkas. Both bandoneons and chemnitzers are concertinas. See http://www.klezmusic.com/sbx-info/sbx-bando.html for more on these types of concertinas.

And there are some button accordions that have only a single reed per note. Sharon Shannon has been known to play one, a Castagnari Lilly.

What distinguishes concertinas from accordions? (1) Absence of prearranged chords; and, (2) buttons that travel in the same direction as the bellows (on accordions the buttons travel perpendicularly to the bellows).

Thanks for correcting me on that. Aren't there also differences in the way the reeds are mounted, or is that only typical and not defining too?

Accordeon reeds and concertina reeds are also made and set differently but recently concertina makers have taken to using the much more readily available and therefore cheaper accordeon reeds to build concertinas. We purists prefer the real thing but I honestly don't know how easy it would be to tell the difference with a well-made accordeon reeded instrument. I believe a friend of Dale makes instruments like this that are well regarded but I've never heard one. I think Avanutria plays one like this too.

There are only a few people making true concertina reeds today, and all of their output goes into their own brand of instruments. In other words, it's not possible for someone else to build the rest of a traditional concertina and buy the reeds from a reedmaker.

The accordion-reeded concertinas do sound different, and their reeds do not typically speak as quickly and subtly as true concertina reeds. But most casual listeners would not likely appreciate the difference.

Dale's concertina-making friend is Bob Tedrow, of Homewood Instruments in Alabama. Avanutria has an accordion-reeded concertina made by Frank Edgley of Ontario. And I have a Morse, made by the Button Box in Amherst, Massachusetts. All are well-regarded among people who want to play anglo concertina without investing several thousand dollars and/or several years on a wait list.

I knew about bob Tedrow but didn't want to go into it in depth. One of his concertinas turned up for sale here and I was curious to price it but didn't get around to it.

It's certainly true about price and waiting lists. I got very lucky in that Richard Evans found me one of his own instruments secondhand and serviced it for me to help me avoid the three year wait. Of course, I had to pay serious money for it.

I've sometimes thought of getting something reasonably good with accordeon reeds in say C#/G# to make it easier to play in difficult keys. It sounds as though that might not work for me. I play very vigorously using a lot of staccato bellows work in place of rolls and using frequent and very quick changes of bellows direction on triplets and it sounds as though accordeon reeds might not be responsive enough. My style would be quite hard, if not impossible, on an old Lachanel. It certainly wouldn't have been possible on my old Lachanal.

[Zubivka]

Looking into the squeezeboxes soundwise what makes a bandoneon different from concertinas is the use of two voices (reeds) blown at the standard (flute) tone and one octave in-tune below. Which explains why some accordionists (or bayan-ists) can play a convincing "bandoneon" sound while using one of their big converter things.

Claudine, you might want to look into this, and not loose all your experience of "true" wind instruments, instead of switching to squeezeboxes.

It's a single-reed system for that dry concertina sound, but the three-row Italian keyboard will make chords and transposing easier, might also give you a head-start on accordion or bayan.

As of a recent inquiry, the price new is 1,050 € (TTC) in a standard wood (like walnut, maple) with a four-month delay, these being made solely on order.
See http://www.boite-accordeon.com/index5.html
Scroll down after the mid-page for the sound-clips.

[LimuHead]

I've played both Anglo and English. My favorite by far is the the English (I have a Wheatstone 64 button Aeola).

It is a versatile instrument for melody, sight reading, and chording. Chord/melody arrangements are also possible with practice.

I especially enjoy playing through Oneill's music of Ireland. (You can play everything in there on an English concertina - even the tunes in funky keys.)

The one drawback to the Enlgish is its cost. It is a couple of times more expensive than an Anglo. (But you can do a lot more with it.)

Well, that's my dos pesos.

Hope that helps,
Aldon

[csharpd]

Aren't there also differences in the way the reeds are mounted [in accordions and concertinas], or is that only typical and not defining too?

I'd say it's "typical" rather than defining. In traditional concertinas, reeds are fitted into dovetailed slots. In modern mid-price concertinas that use accordion reeds, the reeds can be held in place by beeswax or screwed down. Wax is the usual means of mounting reeds in accordions ... but there are exceptions.

I knew about bob Tedrow but didn't want to go into it in depth. One of his concertinas turned up for sale here and I was curious to price it but didn't get around to it.

$1500 - $2000 is the approximate current price range for U.S.-made concertinas with accordion reeds.

I play very vigorously using a lot of staccato bellows work in place of rolls and using frequent and very quick changes of bellows direction on triplets and it sounds as though accordeon reeds might not be responsive enough. My style would be quite hard, if not impossible, on an old Lachanel. It certainly wouldn't have been possible on my old Lachanal.

I might have given you the wrong idea ... my Morse anglo is quite responsive and could, I think, be played very fast. I'm new to anglo, so I'm certainly not pressing the limits of the instrument. My impression, though, is that it's not quite as responsive as my 100-year-old English concertina, a Wheatstone, a top-of-the-line instrument which I can play very fast.

I don't know about the other makers, but The Button Box has "loaner" instruments that allow prospective buyers to try one for a week before placing an order. It's also possible to rent one for a longer period.

[csharpd]

The one drawback to the Enlgish is its cost. It is a couple of times more expensive than an Anglo.

I don't agree with this generalization.

There are always very cheap anglos for sale on eBay, often $100-$200. But they're junk. For not a lot more ($260 delivered) you can by an English concertina made in China to the specifications of a reputable European builder and restorer. See http://www.concertinaconnection.com/what'snew.htm

One tier up, the standard entry-level "Stagi" brand 30-button anglo concertina sells for $500-$600, while the comparable 48-button English concertina is $700-$800. Sure, the English costs more, because it has 60% more reeds and buttons -- but it's not "a couple of times more expensive" than the anglo.

The Morse brand English is $150 more than their similar anglo. ($1750 vs. $1600).

And once you get up into the high end, the demand for vintage Jeffries and Wheatstone anglos by people who want to play Irish music has driven the prices out of sight. The highest prices I've heard have all been paid for Jeffries anglos.

I agree with you, LimuHead, on the versatility of the English concertina. Before someone invests in either system, though (or yet another system, like a Hayden duet), I strongly urge them to try to borrow or rent one. Some people take very naturally to the diatonic anglo; others will find the English suits them better.

[Caj]

I'd say it's "typical" rather than defining. In traditional concertinas, reeds are fitted into dovetailed slots. In modern mid-price concertinas that use accordion reeds, the reeds can be held in place by beeswax or screwed down. Wax is the usual means of mounting reeds in accordions ... but there are exceptions.

In fact, some early Morse concertinas used wax to hold in the accordion reeds. And I'm sure some older concertinas used accordion reeds also, or whatever parts were available.

$1500 - $2000 is the approximate current price range for U.S.-made concertinas with accordion reeds.

That price is about right for all mid-range AR boxes, not just those of US make. Norman, Edgely, Geuns-Wakker, and Marcus boxes are also about that price.

I play very vigorously using a lot of staccato bellows work in place of rolls and using frequent and very quick changes of bellows direction on triplets and it sounds as though accordeon reeds might not be responsive enough.

I might have given you the wrong idea ... my Morse anglo is quite responsive and could, I think, be played very fast.

I agree: my experience is that modern accordion reeds are quite responsive, probably more than any student needs. Expensive old boxes are very responsive, but they have very, very, very good reeds; I don't think it's a "concertina reed" vs "accordion reed" thing.

One advantage of a mid-range accordion reeded box: they are very well engineered, and you will spend many thousands of dollars to find an old box anywhere near as good in mechanical terms.

Caj