Pitch and tuning

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:36 am

With the advent of calling pipes by pitch instead of length, some interesting things have been happening. A 16" chanter can be called a C sharp, but that is its approxamate pitch while a 17" can be forced to play in B, but it is happier sharper in pitch. Geoff Wooff and others make an 18 1/8" B flat which likes to play some cents sharp of that pitch. One maker reciently reported recieving back a well in tune with itself, lovely sounding B flat chanter which the customer rejected because it was 20 cents sharp of B flat. Brad Angus just made a lushous sounding B flat set which really comes out very close to A. It is available for purchace. I can see wanting a D set to play in tune with other instruments, and possibly a C set, for playing the "Brendan Voyage" with an orchestra, but expecting most flat pitch sets to adhere to an A=440 standard is ludicrous. As long as it is in tune with itself, who gives a damn!

Ted

djm · Post by **djm** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:54 am

Ted wrote: As long as it is in tune with itself, who gives a damn!

Probably those people who do want to play in ensembles give a damn.

I have often thought that the obscurity of UPs has a lot to do with those who wish to maintain the exclusiveness of UP performance. I have read many different theories on why Irish music was played by solo instruments, varying from the supposition that instruments were to too rare and expensive to find more than one in any location, to the possibility that so few of them were in tune with each other they couldn't play together. Continental musicians were able to overcome the differences in tuning, and multiple instruments playing in harmony has been a standard long enough that even the Irish must have been well aware of it. I think the real reason is obstinance in independence.

If you ever want to see UPs come out of the closet to become more common and more available, they will have to adapt to modern tuning and be able to take their place in ensembles. There is little or no market for pure piping other than amongst pipers themselves, and they're a fairly obscure group, too.

djm

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:14 am

I would agree with you BUT I have a wonderful duet with a concertinaplayer and I want my C set to be in tune with the concertina.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:22 am

The only fixed pitch instruments used are the box and concertina. All others can tune to the pipes. I don't know of ever seeing other than pipers in sessions in B or B flat or C# for that matter. Ensemble playing is reserved for D, but if some group wants to play in B or other pitch, they may want a set of pipes in tune based on A=440. There is a move to set A @ 442cps among some orchestras. I have had occasion to play with a concertina in C also. I know of one duo which use a Bb concertina and pipes. The pipes were an old set sharp of pitch. They had the concertina tuned to the pipes. Egan Coyne Harrington etc. never heard of A=440.

Ted

glands · Post by **glands** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:55 am

I believe that Ted is right on the mark about the C#, B, and Bb sets.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:27 pm

Ted wrote:With the advent of calling pipes by pitch instead of length, some interesting things have been happening. A 16" chanter can be called a C sharp, but that is its approxamate pitch while a 17" can be forced to play in B, but it is happier sharper in pitch. Geoff Wooff and others make an 18 1/8" B flat which likes to play some cents sharp of that pitch. One maker reciently reported recieving back a well in tune with itsel, lovely sounding B flat chanter which the customer rejected because it was 20 cents sharp of B flat. Brad Angus just made a lushous sounding B flat set which really comes out very close to A. It is available for purchace. I can see wanting a D set to play in tune with other instruments, and possibly a C set, for playing the "Brendan Voyage" with an orchestra, but expecting most flat pitch sets to adhere to an A=440 standard is ludicrous. As long as it is in tune with itself, who gives a damn!

Ted

Interesting topic Ted. I was thinking of this last week but I needed more research to start the topic.

In the beginning, I guess chanters were designed by the length of the 'stick' more so than the pitch they produced. Sorta like the King's foot being the standard to measure by.

Last week I spoke to Brad Angus and got these lengths of chanters and the approximate pitch they play. There's probably a variance of 1/4" either way depending on the maker.

D = 14 1/2"
C# = 15-15 1/4"
C = 16 1/2"
B = 17 1/2"
(some older chanters were 17")
Bb = 18 1/8"

Ted, except for the C# do you agree with the above lengths?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:56 pm

Those lengths are close +/-. I think originally many UP were made in inches, the bell note being refered to as D, the actual pitch being relative. When I started UPs, pipes, other than D, were refered to by the pitch closest to what a set wanted to play. An 18" chanter (Kiernan) was refered to as Bb, although it was only somewhere flat of B. A 17" chanter was refered to as a B but the actual pitch is usually somewhat sharp of B. A 17 1/2" chanter can be tuned to a B based on A=440. A 16" stick is a bit sharp of C. Anyone know what the length of Seamus Ennis's chanter? It is refered to as C# . I believe 18 1/8" still will be a tad sharp of Bb, but at those lengths you may get it to play on pitch based on an A=440.

I suppose if you wanted a set built to play at say B, based on A=440, you should specify that out front to the maker. He will tell you if he can or is willing to do so. Most flat sets are based off of measurements of historic sets and will want to play at approximate pitches, and usually give some tuning problems if tried to be made to play at a fixed pitch. Some makers have made adjustments to their chanter lengths to play at modern pitch.

Ted

djm · Post by **djm** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:08 pm

Wanna have some fun? Try playing a Bnat chanter over D drones for tunes in Dm. You have to have sets that are in tune to be able to fudge things like this.

djm

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:35 pm

C chanter on D drones. Nice sound... expect a few notes to be out a bit thought due to temperment.
(did I spell that correctly?)

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:48 pm

Ted wrote:....I suppose if you wanted a set built to play at say B, based on A=440, you should specify that out front to the maker. He will tell you if he can or is willing to do so. Most flat sets are based off of measurements of historic sets and will want to play at approximate pitches, and usually give some tuning problems if tried to be made to play at a fixed pitch. Some makers have made adjustments to their chanter lengths to play at modern pitch.

Ted

Remember the story of the American business man who had to travel to Asia on an important meeting? He accidently tore his best dress shirt at the meeting and his foreign associate recommended a taylor shop down the street that could copy shirts with really great service. Such a deal... so he ordered a dozen and picked them up the next morning on the way to the airport for his flight back home. On his arrival he opened the box to find the most exact detailing of shirts right down to copying the tear in the sleeve!

This may be a good question to start another topic...
I doubt every piper/customer knows the 'ins and outs' of what makers are doing today.

Is it a historic reproduction or is it a visual reproduction?

As part of their trade, makers should know to ask their customers specifics when making flat sets. It shouldn't be assumed either way.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:35 pm

djm,

If your B nat. stick was 29 cents sharp, I'll bet those drones could tune up to the D on that stick.

Ted

Fergmaun · Post by **Fergmaun** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:13 pm

My Andreas Rogge chanters lengths is

D = 14 1/4 inches = 361.95 millimeters
C = 16 3/4 inches = 425.45 millimeters
B = 17 3/4 inches = 450.85 millimeters

The D and C chanters plays in true pitch to the Chromatic tuner at A=440 and the B chanter plays at about -20 cent with the reed staple in about 1 inches 206 mm all the way in the chanter throat just at the waxed bindling is.

The D C and B chanters is Rogge Reeds
C = head width 12mm, 797 mm overall length 3.9 mm staple outside dia
B = Head width 12mm, 806 mm overall length 3.9 mm staple outside dia
D = head width 13mm, 803 mm overall length, 5 mm staple outside dia

I think I need a shorter B reed and get one Andreas Rooge to make me a new spare reed simlar length to my C reed.

Fergus

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:43 pm

How many of you take a tuner and measure precisely what pitch you're playing in? With a D set there's definitely a point to it; when tuning reeds I'm always firing up my metronome's A pitch pipe note to make sure I'm tuning the thing to 440. BUT!
I have one of these "problem child" Bb chanters, which is very strictly after the Perth Australia M. Egan set. It plays sharp of modern Bb alright; a bit sharper with this reed, less so with this one. But I really couldn't give a rats what pitch I'm in, so long as it's "flat," in tune, plays well, and has tone. (Brad Angus is now making Bbs with a smaller bore, to guarantee you're in 440, by the way)
I even found myself in tune with gilesb's Wooff B set, which of course was playing very flat!

We could have had some tunes together, I did supply some regulator chords for him at one point. But we were mostly keen on hearing the pipes being played, their beautiful sound and so forth.
How many of you check up on what pitch your flat chanter's playing at, and do you have a practical reason for this - wanting to play with fixed pitch instruments, presumably? I've encountered a few pipers who have to be in modern B or the like, I imagine some of you are in that camp.
As another aside - perhaps some of these antique 'B' sets were originally 'C,' at a flatter pitch standard.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:03 pm

Devils advocate...
Don't you listen to (and play along with) CD's of other pipers knowing they're playing (historic reproductions of or) historic sets that are NOT made to A=440 standards???

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:06 pm

My C and D chanters are 'on the money'

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Pitch and tuning

Pitch and tuning

Re: Pitch and tuning