Childress chanter question (second octave E)

orbis · Post by **orbis** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:50 am

Hello once again; yes I've returned (hope I don't cause such a disruption this time);-)
Actually my question is concerning my new set of pipes. I recently received a set (in the key of D) from B.C. Childress, and have noticed that while the first octave E is perfectly in tune, the E in the second octave is flat. I was wondering if anyone else has run into a similar problem with his or anyone else's sets, and if so what they did about it. I've called Mr. Childress quite a lot in the last several weeks, and do not want to become a pest by bothering him more than I should. So is there something that I myself can adjust to remedy the issue?
The only other uilleann chanter that I've ever used was Daye's penny chanter and so I'm really lacking in experience when it comes to working with wooden chanters. Any help or advice you could give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance..

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:41 am

Orbis,
How flat is the second octave E??

I just tried my Childress chanter with 4 reeds from different makers and they were all relatively in tune. Depending on bag pressure you can make them rise or fall but we're only talking about ± 5¢

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:24 am

That's normal in my experience with the wide bore D design.

Try various bits of stuff in the E and ghost D holes (I use poster putty) and you will find a combination that will give you a real cool ghost D and a bottom E that can be blown into tune.

Otherwise, play the bottom E off the knee while covering the ghost D hole (ring finger raised).

j dasinger · Post by **j dasinger** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:20 pm

Orb,
Are you using a rush in the bore? Isn't the rush supposed to flatten the second octave relatively more than the first, or do I have that backwards? Maybe you could try it without the rush if you're using one. Gaaah! Need input from someone who knows what they're talking about...

j.

bcpipes · Post by **bcpipes** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:50 pm

Hey there Orbis, et al,

It's just me. I do that............

I find that I can play around a slightly flat second octave E easier than I can a first octave E that's sharp. So I tune the first octave E to A=440 and let the second octave E fall where it wills. A first octave E that doesn't match the drones just bugs me way more than a second octave E that is a bit flat. Especially when you can vary a second octave E easier by pressure and chanter lifting. Sometimes the Second octave E "plays-in". Some say the second octave E plays-in the player. I find If I tune the second octave E to A=440, my first octave E becomes intolerably sharp.

For those who so request (that's you, Orbis), I will tune the E's to balance the best between the 2 octaves. With a D pitch (relatively wide bore, See the topic: "Earschplittenloudenboomerpipes") the pitch difference between E's tends to be an issue. The compromise is to have a first octave E that is a tad sharp, and a second octave E that is still flat, but not quite as much. How many times have you heard "engineering trade-off".

I tend to ship chanters as I like them, unless otherwise directed. It is a bit of a presumption, but, for novice clients, I have found it is a reasonably safe prospect. And any modifications the client finds necessary for their own piping style is easy enough to remedie.

Cheers,
BC

Royce · Post by **Royce** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:30 am

Yeah, just send that chanter to me and I'll trade you for one that tends to be either dead-on in both octaves, or sharpish in both, or sharpish in the upper. When the upper E get's sharpish I just have to open the reed a hair. Anyway, it's actually more difficult to work around a chanter that tends to be dead on like mine, because when it goes off in the heat or summer or very dry of winter around here it always goes off sharp in the upper E, which you can't blow down to pitch and if you wax or tape the whole very much you get a weaking response on the note in the lower octave on the knee, and are flat flat flat in the lower octave with the off-the-knee open fingering.

Anyway, trade me and save my buying one myself.

Royce

(By the way, the Daye Penny Chanter can be very good to typically in tunish on any or all notes, and generally follows the way of the flattish upper E and in-tune lower D. But I've heard a lot of home-builts and home-unbuilts send out from David Himself that may have left the shop sounding good, but by the time I ran into them they were only a slim margin above Pakistani-sounding chanters.)

Royce · Post by **Royce** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:15 pm

j dasinger wrote:Orb,
Are you using a rush in the bore? Isn't the rush supposed to flatten the second octave relatively more than the first, or do I have that backwards? Maybe you could try it without the rush if you're using one. Gaaah! Need input from someone who knows what they're talking about...
j.

Forgot to mention that this is backwards, rush the bore from F# to the bell, or from below A to the bell if you need to pull G and F# down too, which will flatten the lower octave more than the upper. Then the magic fix more often than not is waxing up the *bottom* half of ghost D. This has little effect on the lower E, but brings high E up quite a bit.

Royce

rgouette · Post by **rgouette** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:19 am

yeah, same thing with my chanter from Bruce. I give the bag an extra squeeze & that does it.

Antaine · Post by **Antaine** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:59 am

I love my childress chanter, but i've found that the upper is is a little flat and in particular the back d. i just don't squeeze the bag quite so hard when i need to use those notes and it sounds just fine.

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 1:19 pm

I'm curious how much variation you can achieve with bag pressure on your flat E. My flat B set from Childress will also tend to play a very slightly flat E if I don't pay attention to my bag pressures...

Also, do you have a second reed you could try?

Cheers,

Michael

Royce · Post by **Royce** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:35 am

Antaine wrote:I love my childress chanter, but i've found that the upper is is a little flat and in particular the back d. i just don't squeeze the bag quite so hard when i need to use those notes and it sounds just fine.

If you have to back off to *sharpen* back D you have either a reed problem, meaning, back D is collapsing but not breaking, or more likely I suspect on intuition alone, you have a perfectly good reed pulled out a bit to far and you're overblowing back D and whatever else trying to get it up to pitch. What happens instead is you're just blowing the hell out of it and this actually blows back D flat even with a perfectly good reed. Whether the reed is shot or too closed or you're just overblowing, any time back D goes sharper when you back off it, you're blowing too damned hard on it relative to it's strength. It's fine to compress it a bit so it flattens a hair under pressure but having to overtly back off it to make it play in tune is not a characteristic of a BCC chanter or any other even half decent chanter.

Royce

(The low/high E thing as per original complaintis perfectly normal and I think desireable unless pronouncedly and unmusically flat in the upper octave so that it simply cannot be blown into tune. The chanter I'm playing now, for the moment, is clocked in at being *exactly* in tune in both octaves at concert pitch but I have a real problem with high E anyway when playing with fiddlers mainly, because they all seem to find it too hard to reach out for a true high E and slop it out flat, very flat most of the time, and the result is very annoying.)

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:29 am

Here is an e-mail to the uilleann list concerning E tuning.

Pipemaker
Andreas Rogge
Westbahnhofstraße 60
72070 Tübingen

0049 (0)7071 / 43679
www.uilleann-pipes.de

The sharp E in the second octave is caused by a too small chamber in the reed. The best way to cure it is to open the reed and enlarge that
chamber just obove the bridle position by sanding. The idea is to have a big volume inside the reed while keeping the lips as closed as possible. The chamber has an effect to the two e's and to cnat and csharp. As well you may improve the bottom D a lot.
Andreas

You might also improve the Es with what I call a more "square" reed.

Instead of the continual taper from the tail out to the tips, the sides are parallel from the end of the tail cut to the tip of the blade.

The square design reed is better tuned in my Mark Hillmann chanter. I have to do less rushing/puttying holes and my Es can be blown into tune easily.

What reed design does your Childress have in it?

Antaine · Post by **Antaine** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:36 pm

thanks royce...I'll move the reed next time i have the set out...

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