Does this transposing problem only happen at church?

[blackhawk]

Morgan, check out this website for people who play whistles in church.

http://praisewhistlers.org/pwboard/index.php

[Morgan Redwood]

Morgan, check out this website...

Thanks! I've got it in my Bookmarks now. It's amazing how much stuff is out there if you only run across the right people.

[Nanohedron]

The whistle is, after all, technically a C instrument, even though you have E and A and etc. whistles

That's true of a D whistle. Though try telling whistlers that a D whistle is actually a C instrument (meaning concert pitch), and their heads start to spin.

(BTW, I just noticed that this exact same terminology issue has just popped up on the flute forum. Heads are spinning ... )

This bit's timely for me. Just the other day a guitarist was asking if my D flute and C pipes were in 'concert C'. I blinked a bit. "No, concert pitch is always D. Same goes for the pipes. Yer C set's a 'flat set', and a D set's a 'concert set'. D flutes get called 'concert flutes'," I replied from the dark streets of my ITM ghetto. This went around and around for a bit until I finally realised he basically meant 'tuned to A440'. "Sure enough, easily done; that's why the flute has a tuning slide," I assured him, "but I can't vouch for the pipes. Haven't really had to care until now." They were indeed flat by a few cents, but, hey. The set was in tune with itself.

Anyway, now I know how to interpret 'concert C'.

Edit: Ooookaaay, now. Just read the link to the Flute Forum and am now seeing why Boehm fluters say 'C flutes' for what I'd call a 'D flute with a C foot'. Sigh. I'm not gonna argue any more. Tomayto, tomahto.

[MTGuru]

Yeah, Nano, the terminology is actually fairly rational. Because the whistle, simple flute, and chanter are essentially diatonic instruments, it makes sense to label them according to which natural scale they play. That's the key characteristic. In many (but not all) cases, the bell note is also the lowest note of the natural scale.

On the classical side, the instruments are chromatic, and conceptually there's no natural scale. The lowest note or bell note may not correspond to any particular scale. And the key characteristic is how an instrument sounds in relation to other instruments. So it makes sense to label them in relation to piano pitch = concert pitch. The piano becomes the universal "reference standard".

So the test is simple. Just play what you consider to be a "C" on your instrument. Whatever piano-equivalent pitch comes out is then the key or pitch of that instrument. Play a "C" on a tenor sax or trumpet, and you match a Bb on the piano. Voilà, those are Bb instruments. Play a "C" on a French horn or English horn, and a piano F comes out, so they're F instruments, and so on.

Play a "C" on silver Boehm flute or oboe, and a C comes out. So they're C instruments. And C instruments are also referred to as "concert pitch" instruments. The note you play is what you get. The other instruments are referred to as "transposing instruments". The note you play is some other note on the piano.

So if you play a "C" on a D whistle, the piano note you get is also a C natural. Thus in classical terms, the D whistle is a C instrument or "concert pitch instrument". A D whistle, Boehm flute and oboe can read the same notes off a sheet of music, and they'll all be playing the same pitches (or octave equivalents).

But if you play a "C" on a C whistle, the piano note you get is actually a ... Bb. So the C whistle is actually a "Bb instrument". A C whistle, Bb trumpet and Bb soprano saxophone can read the same notes off a sheet of music. And so on.

So as a quick rule, just take the key of an ITM wind instrument and lower it a whole step to get its concert pitch equivalent. A D chanter is a "concert C" instrument. A G whistle is a "concert F" instrument. A Bb flute is a "concert Ab" instrument. Etc.

There you go. Now everyone is on the same page.

[Denny]

There you go. Now everyone is on the same page.

great....so what's the next chapter?

[cowtime]

I sometimes play whistle at church- but not often since I play the organ and can only do whistle alone or when someone else visits who will play organ.

I just ignore the notes until I find the tune and which whistle is easiest to play the tune on and then I sometimes pencil in my notes and what key whistle I need for that one. If it's just one tune, I generally just wing it.

[Nanohedron]

There you go. Now everyone is on the same page.

Like hell. I tore it out.

Anyway, yeah, I finally understand the classical standard, now. It took a lingust to make it clear for me.

Nevertheless, here is a Public Service Announcement: in future I'll still be referring to the diatonic bell note - and that includes fully-keyed simple-sytem flutes - as the pitch of the instrument in almost every circumstance: everyone else I know who plays trad music does. Less confusion for me. But I promise to be accommodating - within reason - for those suffering from classically-encumbered thoughts.

And besides, as an ITM musician, I cannot in good conscience give the piano such pride of place.

[Denny]

does not your "gizmo" suffer the same tunning

and A is an A, eh?

[Nanohedron]

does not your "gizmo" suffer the same tunning

and A is an A, eh?

Let us not so much as discuss the strings section.

Oh, what the heck. Fundamentally it's tuned semi-open (I think the tuning's arguably referrable as an "inversion"-type tuning or something) with the D compass primarily in mind, from which follow - ignoring the precision of modes except for Mixolydian, and ignoring bar chords, which I really don't do - the keys of D, Dm, Dmix, Em, G, Gm, Gmix, A, Am, Amix, Bm, and, surprisingly to me recently, Bb, and all quite nicely. The A set of keys is the least flexible, but it works. All of which I suppose means "Concert C". Which is totally counterintuitive, because although one can play in C and F on it, it's not at all at its best in those keys without a capo. *sigh*

But the big difference, here, is that I'm referring to chord-based playing, not melody playing. Does that change things?

[Morgan Redwood]

The problem comes when your orchestra/band consists of current, former, and directors of high school band members...you are forced to deal with the classical/pitch issue with all those trumpets/french horns/clarinets. Eep!

[Nanohedron]

The problem comes when your orchestra/band consists of current, former, and directors of high school band members...you are forced to deal with the classical/pitch issue with all those trumpets/french horns/clarinets. Eep!

You poor people.

[Denny]

I was the wind section in my high school orchestra
oboe, trumpet, French horn, trombone, clarinet, whatever...4 or 5 music stands...

oh, yeah...tenor sax...

[MTGuru]

That's a lot of wind, Denny. We knew you had it in you.

[fearfaoin]

If you wish to use a whistle to play music written for a transposing instrument,
here is a list of whistles that will allow you to play in the correct key (using the
same fingerings for the written notes as you would use on a D whistle)


Bb instruments: (use a C whistle)
Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Soprano Sax, Tenor Sax, Trumpet,

C instruments: (use a D whistle)
Flutes, piccolo, Oboe, Bassoon, Recorders, Piano, Euphonium, Trombone, Tuba, Strings (violin, cello, etc.)

Eb instruments: (use an F whistle)
Alto Sax, Bari Sax, Alto Clarinet

F instruments: (use a G whistle)
French Horn, Mellophone, English Horn


So, if you're looking over an Alto Sax player's shoulder, and you want to
play along, pick up an F whistle and read his music, and you'll sound fine.

[BEC]

I have grappled with this in church for some time and have gotten to where I can treat either D whistles or C whistles as "concert pitch" . That is, I can read at pitch for both C and D whistles as well as C and F recorders - which are both "what you play is what the piano also gets" (or an octave from there).

The idea of reading clarinet/trumpet music as written on a C whistle (playing it as if it were a D) amazingly never occurred to me until reading this thread. And the idea of using an F whistle for Eb parts or a G whistle for F parts - brilliant! That may save me from entering at least some such parts into Noteworthy Composer and then choosing "transpose staff" to the appropriate place and printing that out, which is how I've been dealing with that up to now. At least parts wouldn't require many half-holed notes on a whistle would be candidates for such things.

Thanks MT and fearfaoin!