Tonguing question

[johnnyboi]

How much do you folks use tonguing as a means of articulation with your whistle?

Is it a big no-no in ITM? Or is it just a personal thing?

I find myself in some tunes doing it hardly ever, whereas in others I might even tongue the first note in each bar. The tunes I know best seem to have less tonguing... so perhaps I'm subconsiously using it to fill in for ornamentation.

What's your opinion on the subject?

[Gabriel]

I actually use my tongue a lot when playing the whistle. Don't know why, it sort of happens more or less automatically. When playing the same tune on the flute, I hardly use my tongue.

[hydromel89]

I would say it depends on the tune.

On some I use tonguing a lot, on some others I try to use "regular" articulation instead (cuts, taps, etc.). But since I am not very good at articulation (yet!), I generally use tonguing a lot... too much in my opinion.

I feel it backs up my faults about rythm/ coordination by making the notes trnasition more neat (not sure I am understandable about this!). I find it difficult to do with fast/very fast tunes though.

I actually mostly do slight tonguing; my tongue remains quite far from the embouchure and the articulation is not very neat.

[johnnyboi]

I actually mostly do slight tonguing; my tongue remains quite far from the embouchure and the articulation is not very neat.

Yeah that's me too. More of a soft 'duh' than a 'tuh' sound. I learnt that on flute... it's great for legato playing!

[CranberryDog]

I sedom tongue on purpose. I prefer to use rolls and crans and so on. It sounds a bit like a recorder to my ear. Each to their own. I can see how it would help in certain situations like starting notes. Cheers

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Depends what your background in ITM is. There are a lot of old style players who absolutely frown on any tonguing what so ever, and then there is the other end of the spectrum where anything goes. If there was a scale from one to ten ( with old time players being 10 and the tongue every note people being 1 ) my preference for playing would be between 8-10. There are tunes that sound (here will be the sticking point I think) 'better' with a few tongued notes in certain places. Just do a search on Youtube and you will see the wide range of tonguing/non tonguing there is out there. I have heard whistle players, who when playing a jig, tongue every note! it is so annoying, tut-tut-tut, tut-tut-tut, aaaggghh stop it!! It is better to put your tongue in your cheek and play (I mean literally. Try it, bite your tongue between your teeth at one side of your mouth and play a tune with no tonguing) than to have that constant stacatto of notes with no slurring. Learn to slur!

[PallasAthena]

I rarely tongue. Let's be honest: tonguing the majority of the notes in a tune is harder than sluring. In jigs and reels, I usually only tongue in places where it helps shape the phrase or to hide a difficult octive jump. In airs and other tunes, I think I may tongue slightly more often, particurarly if the tune has a lot of repeated notes (like b b b or whatever) or is very slow.

[crookedtune]

As a beginner, I used it far too much. When I started getting serious, I eliminated it altogether, and was very pleased with the result. Now I add it in occasionally, when I need to push a note, such as in octave jumps. Others use it to good effect, but I tend to steer away from it mostly.

[Jon-M]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with tonguing in Irish music. If you listen to the music of Sean Ryan, Mary Bergin or Donncha O'Briain, you'll hear plenty of it.

[Jon-M]

Sorry for the double submission.

[Traveler]

I'm cursed with having been a jazz trumpet player (A.F. Band, 20 years), so while dexterity in the right hand is above par, fingers on the left hand are quite disobedient. In the few years I've played whistle, I've had a number of "lessons" from Joanie, Cillian, Kevin, etc. and have diligently worked to improve rolls (on A and on B in particular).

I'd listened to Flook, noting that Brian Finnegan plays what I consider to be impossible with finger articulation alone. Suspicion confirmed: A couple of years ago I, attended a Flook gig (sat in the front row, about six feet from Brian), and: 1) heard one million notes, but... 2) saw very little finger movement. After the gig, I asked him about it. Though at that point I wasn't surprised at his answer, to my complete delight he said he "doodle-tongues."

If Brian Finnegan endorses it, it's okay in my book! I'm no longer afraid to let my roots show! I still wood-shed the A and B rolls (and even use them in public when I've had enough to drink), but when playing gigs, I make liberal use of tonguing. Here's the link to a not-so-recent interview (Brad Hurley's website) where he talks about it.

http://www.firescribble.net/flute/finnegan.html


- Bo

[Bloomfield]

There are a lot of old style players who absolutely frown on any tonguing what so ever, ...

Could you tell us who you're thinking of?

I think it makes sense to be able to play without tonguing (forces you to get your finger movements precise), but as stylistic matter, I think tonguing is desirable. Only question is how much you want to tongue, and that is personal preference to a large extent.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

I'm talking about my experience of years ago when I lived in Ireland. The old style players I am talking about would be well into their 90's or more by now. I could not give you any names, I can't remember them, but they were good, and I mean very good, players. You must understand these were the regular session players of the day and they had very strict protocol in place when joining in a session. I came originally from a recorder and the fife background so when I started playing ITM it was reguarly commented on that I tongued too much and should try not to tongue but slur notes or use a guttaral stop instead.
I am now of the opinion that there is no set rule for tonguing, or any other ornament for that matter, except that too much of the same can be monotonous. Remember, that is only my opinion.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Oh by the way, the protocol in sessions in Ireland has relaxed over the years, but there are still sessions out there were you will get frowned upon for tonguing. Read the on line whistle tutors or do some research on session protocol (like I did about 10 years ago) and you will find comments somewhere about session players who have set ideas about how tunes should be played. I personally think they are wrong to be bound by the way a tune was written down in something like the ITM bible "O'Niell's".
Irish traditional music is all about expressing the tune and getting the lilt, everything else (tonguing, slurring, ornamentation etc) is a bonus, but the correct balance has to be found.

[johnnyboi]

Hey I'm curious what you mean by guttural stops... I think I know what they are but I don't believe I've come across it in whistle playing before?