The Dark Side, Luke ...

[Terry McGee]

We can tell by the number of posts on the topic of tone (and by listening at sessions) that it's hard for new players of the Irish flute to find the dark, centred tone which features on the recordings that attracted them to the music. Possibly doubly hard for experienced Boehm flute players, whose previous training has lead them in quite a different direction. I wondered if this would be a useful exercise ....

Step One - discover the difference. Play a "nice" low octave G note, aiming the jet of air at the far edge of the hole. Now play a dark version of the same note, by protruding the upper lip (or withdrawing the lower lip, or doing both) to cover more of the hole, and to direct the airstream downwards, and by increasing the airflow. You should feel as if you were trying to blow a fly off your chin, or blow the jet into the centre of the flute rather than the edge. You should hear the note go hard and dark.

(Interesting to watch the spectrum of the note on an FFT spectrum analyser while doing this - you'll see increased content in the 2nd, 3rd and higher harmonics. The Autotuner incorporates an FFT unit and is free to download - see my Resources for Irish Flute players page for details).

Step Two - Increase the difference. Now alternate the two notes, "nice" and "dark", pushing the dark one harder and harder (both in terms of depression of the jet towards the floor and in increased airflow), until you are really impressed with the two differing sounds you can make. The "dark" sound should sound like tearing roofing iron compared to the cooing-of-doves "nice" sound. (Note - you may never wish to use the cooing-of-doves "nice" sound, but it has an important purpose here - to provide a reference from which you are trying to get away.)

Step Three - Increase the range. Now play up and down the low octave - firstly a few notes, then the whole octave - in both "nice" and "dark" modes. Keep pushing the "dark" darker.

Step four - Try some music. Nothing fast - we're working on tone here, not dexterity. If you play fast music, you won't have time to make the little adjustments needed to optimise each note. And you wont have time to evaluate the tone colour of each note. A song tune, an air, something with long notes, or just noodle. Use both modes ("nice" and "dark") to confirm your progress.

Step Five - Real Life. Try some dance music now, and see if this exercise has helped darken up your tone. Again use both modes to explore the difference.

I'll be interested in feedback to see if this approach has merit as an introduction to Irish tone, or if it might have merit but needs further clarification.

Terry

[Sillydill]

Hey Terry,

As one who has craved and tried to cultivate the “Dark Side” I thought I would ask about my own method.

In regards to your Step One, I achieve this effect by turning the flute head well in. On my normally sized or smaller embouchured flutes I turn the head down till it is perfectly comfortable to kiss the embouchure, with my fingers ready to play. I then slightly extend my lower jaw to play. This can make your jaws a bit sore after a while, but with time it becomes natural. *Note - In this position the flute head is placed on your lower lip, not beneath it.

On larger embouchured flutes (i.e. Hammy, I’ve never tried your Rounded Rectangle embouchure) I’ve not found this technique to produce a good tone. I have to turn the head back up to get a better tone, although it isn’t particularly dark sounding.

I’m not saying I’m doing it the correct or best way, just checking to see if anyone else out there has paralleled or contradicted my findings.

All the Best!

Jordan

[Terry McGee]

In regards to your Step One, I achieve this effect by turning the flute head well in. On my normally sized or smaller embouchured flutes I turn the head down till it is perfectly comfortable to kiss the embouchure, with my fingers ready to play. I then slightly extend my lower jaw to play. This can make your jaws a bit sore after a while, but with time it becomes natural. *Note - In this position the flute head is placed on your lower lip, not beneath it.

Silly me, Sillydill. I should have mentioned that I turn the flute in too, so the "blowing at edge, blowing at centre", "nice" tone, "dark" tone starts with the embouchure already turned towards you. So, I'm talking serious occlusion of the embouchure hole here (in "dark" mode). And not extending the lower jaw, indeed the opposite, withdrawing it so that the direction of the airjet is downward, seemingly toward the centre of the flute.

On larger embouchured flutes (i.e. Hammy, I’ve never tried your Rounded Rectangle embouchure) I’ve not found this technique to produce a good tone.

I don't know Hammy's typical dimensions, so I don't know if it relates in any way to my Rounded Rectangle. The RR is still about 10.5mm across, so it's not larger in dimensions than say my elliptical, but being more rectangluar, increases the venting without increasing the jet length.

I have to turn the head back up to get a better tone, although it isn’t particularly dark sounding.

That might be because you are not covering enough of the larger embouchure. Perhaps try such embouchures under the lip so more is covered?

Despite much trying, I still get far better results from the rounded rectangle than the elliptical. Boehm reported the same result, so it might be a lip or other facial feature thing. Boehm of course was interested in the "nice" tone, while I'm interested in the "dark". The ratio of "nice" to "dark" seems broadly the same on the different embouchures.

I’m not saying I’m doing it the correct or best way, just checking to see if anyone else out there has paralleled or contradicted my findings.

And this is of course the rub - we all are going to get differing results depending on too many factors to contemplate. My hope though is that if we can get people comfortable with the idea that the same person with the same flute is capable of a range of tone colours, and that going this way generally results in a "nicer" tone, and this way a "darker" tone, we might give them some tools to work with.

Terry

[Wormdiet]

I then slightly extend my lower jaw to play.

Up to about two months ago I had always attempted to "focus" my embouchure by protruding my lower jaw. The theory was that, by so doing, I could tighten my lips more naturally. I occasionally got lucky and produced a decent tone. Then a friend told me to pull the jaw *in* and it's made a world of difference. While not consistent, I'm getting closer to a "cold stick of butter" tone - thick, solid, and defined enough that you can cut it with a knife, but creamy enough that it melts in yer mouth.

One thing I try to do is to play along with CDs, at first pulling out the HJ until I'm in tune with the recording with my "normal' embouchure. Then, I push it in a few mm and work towards flattening/darkening the tone with embouchure alone. When this gets comfortable, the HJ goes in just a bit more. Rinse & repeat.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

I then slightly extend my lower jaw to play.

Up to about two months ago I had always attempted to "focus" my embouchure by protruding my lower jaw. The theory was that, by so doing, I could tighten my lips more naturally. I occasionally got lucky and produced a decent tone. Then a friend told me to pull the jaw *in* and it's made a world of difference. While not consistent, I'm getting closer to a "cold stick of butter" tone - thick, solid, and defined enough that you can cut it with a knife, but creamy enough that it melts in yer mouth.

Why am I suddenly hungry???

[GaryKelly]

I'm getting closer to a "cold stick of butter" tone - thick, solid, and defined enough that you can cut it with a knife, but creamy enough that it melts in yer mouth.

I prefer a tone that varies between Campbell's Condensed Cream of Tomato soup and a Werther's Original toffee, but that's just me.

Of course, it's fundamental that everyone's anatomy is unique, as Terry alluded to above, so there's no one magic formula that'll guarantee "if you pull this face and do this..." you'll get a 100% authentic Irish tone (whatever that is).

Experimentation is the key, I think. That, and time, and trusting to the amazing feedback loop that exists between brain, ears, and lips.

This is where listening to the music a lot helps... in time, your braaain identifies the tone it (you) would like to produce. Listening to your own playing as you play, the ears and brain cooperate in an attempt to adjust your embouchure and other aspects of physiology (breath control, position, oral cavity &c &c) to *produce* the tone it's striving for. Those adjustments can be microscopic.

It's also why it takes time to develop the 'stable' embouchure... a vast number of muscles have to learn to react to the constant feedback signals from the brain, and that doesn't happen overnight. Maintaining that tone for any length of time also requires that the entire physiology is practiced and responsive and has stamina. (Which is why total beginners can have such a hard time getting *any* kind of tone to start with, much less the full range of the instrument).

Practicing long tones and experimenting are, I think, the key, rather than a generic "make chipmunk lips" or "smile like Yoda" instruction.

Besides, not everyone wants to sound like Conal O'Grada or Kevin Crawford. If you listen to the WFO CDs you'll hear an amazing variety of tones, not all of which by any means can be described as 'rich dark creamy complex focused barking honking buzzing and reedy' or any of the other whacky descriptors we see so often.

You need to know what sound it is you want to begin with. "Dark centred tone" means as much to me as Wormdiet's quote above (pretty much nothing, in fact).

Roll in, roll out, experiment, and practice with the long tones I think is probably about the only 'generic' instruction that'd make sense to a 'generic' population.

[chas]

I then slightly extend my lower jaw to play.

Up to about two months ago I had always attempted to "focus" my embouchure by protruding my lower jaw. The theory was that, by so doing, I could tighten my lips more naturally. I occasionally got lucky and produced a decent tone. Then a friend told me to pull the jaw *in* and it's made a world of difference. While not consistent, I'm getting closer to a "cold stick of butter" tone - thick, solid, and defined enough that you can cut it with a knife, but creamy enough that it melts in yer mouth.

Why am I suddenly hungry???

The other day I sawed up a log of English boxwood. I swear the garage smelled like buttered popcorn for half an hour.

[Loren]

I'm getting closer to a "cold stick of butter" tone - thick, solid, and defined enough that you can cut it with a knife, but creamy enough that it melts in yer mouth.

I prefer a tone that varies between Campbell's Condensed Cream of Tomato soup and a Werther's Original toffee, but that's just me.

For me, it's the "Brown Sound" as Eddie Van Halen would say.

FWIW, as a point of reference, many folks turn the headjoint in until the blowing edge ( the edge furthest from the player) is roughly in line with the center of the top finger hole. Again, roughly.

Loren

[peeplj]

Great thread.

My Hamilton is definitely a "medium" sized embouchure hole. It's slightly smaller than the on the Seery. It produces a big, ringing sound though.

I got a chance to try a Murray flute...now that beast had a large embouchure hole.

--James

[Wormdiet]

EDIT:

Removed in the interests of preserving the forum from snarkiness.

carry on.

[Loren]

Great thread.

My Hamilton is definitely a "medium" sized embouchure hole. It's slightly smaller than the on the Seery. It produces a big, ringing sound though.

I got a chance to try a Murray flute...now that beast had a large embouchure hole.

--James

May very well have been reworked at some point James (the Murray that is) I've seen both Hamiltons and Murrays with "medium" and quite large embouchure holes. The largest that I've seen on both makes were reworked (as confirmed by the owners) and so enlarged somewhat in the process. (Personally, I haven't liked the end result on any of these, much preferring the maker's "Standard" size embouchure hole, regardless of shape)

Loren

[dow]

Very interesting and informative thread, and a new exercise to refine my embouchure control.

Despite much trying, I still get far better results from the rounded rectangle than the elliptical. Boehm reported the same result, so it might be a lip or other facial feature thing. Boehm of course was interested in the "nice" tone, while I'm interested in the "dark". The ratio of "nice" to "dark" seems broadly the same on the different embouchures.

Terry, have you tried this with different flute styles with the same or similar embouchures? If so, how much difference do you see between them? For instance, a GLP (still loving mine, thank you very much) vs. a Prattens. I realize that there's a world of difference between the two, but I'd be interested to know how the "dark side" test works on them.

[Sillydill]

I thought maybe I should clarify what I meant by turning the head well in: approximately 65 degrees from the toneholes (center to center). I set it and then measured it with a protractor. But since I don't use a protractor to set the head there is some variation.

In my previous post I contemplated using the Rudall - Pratten dichotoamy, in lieu of embouchure sizes. Hence: Small-Normal sized Embouchure = Rudall, and Large Embouchure = Pratten.

Hey Loren, I really like your Emoticon! Can you make your flute sound like James Brown WOW!!!
But it's gotta dance as well.

Oh and Dow you might want to see this thread: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... light=dark

[monkey587]

I hadn't played in a few weeks until yesterday, and found that my embouchure seemed to be gone. Cautiously optimistic, I decided to oil my flute in case perhaps a small crack had opened or something.

This morning I followed Terry's advice and was thoroughly enjoying the tone... But I don't know whether it was both or just one of the two variables that caused it. Hmph.

[GaryKelly]

EDIT:

Removed in the interests of preserving the forum from snarkiness.

carry on.

Spoilsport!

I thought maybe I should clarify what I meant by turning the head well in: approximately 65 degrees from the toneholes (center to center).

Crikey... 65 deg...

I've never measured mine, but generally the far edge of the embouchure hole can vary from in line with the near edge of the tone-holes, to in line with the tone-holes' centreline. Sometimes I don't have to move it for weeks, some days I'll move it around a bit between tunes until I get the tone set. Other times I just give up in disgust and play the fiddle instead, usually when the temperature and humidity are high and the flute sounds like it's choked with fluff or something. Lips and people do get tired, I wouldn't expect to be able to set the headjoint in one position and leave it there forever.