Scottish vs Irish Trad?

chattiekathy · Post by **chattiekathy** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:20 pm

Here is a real newbie question!

What is the main difference between Scottish and Irish trad music?

I hope this is the right place to ask this. Oh and Bloomfield, It's Ok with me if you get in on this one.

I haven't been playing whistle long enough to be able to execute all the ornamentations or even tell the difference between some of them by listening, but when I listen to Celtic music, I haven't a clue if it's Scottish or ITrad.

Kathy

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:49 pm

Well, I basically have to post to this one, right?

There are few obvious differences. For example, in Scots music you have something called a strathspey, which is a bit like a hornpipe, but with a distinctive rhythm called the Scottish Snap in which you have a short note followed by a long note, exactly the reverse of the usual hornpipe taa-di taa-di...

Other differences are more subtle, and I am certainly not qualified to speak to them. You should realize though that many "Irish" tunes come originally from Scotland and that esp. in Donegal there is a significant amount of Scotish influence. (Packie Manus Byrne and other describe the "Tatty-hokers", or seasonal farm laborers who went across to Scotland and returned to Ireland, bringing with them many a tune.) For instance, Miss MacLeod's Reel (see StevieJ's thread on that one) is originally a Scots tune. I say "originally" because often these tunes get a distinctly Irish treatment by Irish musicians that makes them sound different from what they would be when played by a Scots player.

But even within Scotland there are big differences and a Shetland fiddler will sound different than a fiddler from Edinburgh. But this is pretty much over my head and I haven't listened to enough Scotish trad musicians to comment further.

The best approach to find out more about this is I guess to become aware of where a particular player is from, like Aly Bain, for instance, and where particular tunes come from.

Sorry if this isn't particularly helpful.

_________________
/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-07-31 16:18 ]

chattiekathy · Post by **chattiekathy** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:11 pm

That gives me a starting point! Bloomfield. Thanks.
I want to learn how to play both styles because my ancesters on my mothers side are from Scotland, (The Robertson Clan). I know she will be asking me to play some Scottish tunes. I also noticed on my little Whistle book that came with my Walton whistle that it had on it "Scottish Whistle Book". But most of the tunes in it are the same as the tunes in my Whistlers Pocket Companion book I bought. Now that makes sense because of the farm laborers carring them overland. Cool!

Uh O! I will have to invest in a bunch of Whistler's CD's.

If anyone has any suggestions Who to get and where I can get them I would appreciate it.
Thanks!
Kathy
By the way would that be a different kind of WhOA! "Need CD's" Maybe CDWhOA!

douga · Post by **douga** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:48 pm

You can find some links on Scottish whistling and whistlers at http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/whist.html.

Hope this is helpful.

Somehow this link doesn't work from the message, but if you delete the period from the end of the link, it's fine.

[ This Message was edited by: douga on 2002-07-31 16:49 ]

[ This Message was edited by: douga on 2002-07-31 16:50 ]

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:50 pm

Bloomfield, what about that melody versus rythm idea (you started that thread on another forum). So now, do you still think that melody is more important and/or more interesting in irish trad than in scottish music? Or did you change your mind?

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:19 pm

On 2002-07-31 16:50, claudine wrote:
Bloomfield, what about that melody versus rythm idea (you started that thread on another forum). So now, do you still think that melody is more important and/or more interesting in irish trad than in scottish music? Or did you change your mind?

Ha! I almost alluded to that and then bit my tongue. When I called Scots music "less meldically interesting", they all thought I was (a) a stark raving lunatic, (b) an avid hater of all things Scots, (c) a chauvinistic Irishman, or (d) all of the above. I Guess one can never live a comment down.

So, what I said on The Session was this:

It is my not-very-informed impression that one of the subtle differences between Irish and Scots trad music is the relative importance of melody. In Irish trad melody is of central importance, and every good Irish musician I have ever asked (OK, all three of them), has answered without hesitation that melody is the most important aspect of music. In Scots music I think the picture isn't that clear and there seems to a penchant for rhythm or groove that equals the interest in melodic subtlety. The effect is that you find simple and repetitive tunes that are a bit less intricate (and dare I say subtle), but that can give you a great trance-like feeling. Examples would be the Jig of Slurs or The Anvil. You know, lots of appregios, repetitions, few differences between parts, that sort of thing.

OK, before you jump on me, here are the caveats: As I said, I am no expert. This is a really broad generalization and there counter-examples on both sides. Especially strathspeys can be really melody-driven, I think. The Scots origin of many "Irish" tunes doesn't really cut one way or the other, because of what happens to Scots tunes in Irish music (now you really have to listen to Jim Donaghue's Miss MacLeod's and read StevieJ's comments, if you haven't already). Finally, I am just trying to grasp a difference and I am not saying that one is better than the other, or even that I like one better than the other.

chattiekathy · Post by **chattiekathy** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:11 pm

Thanks for the link Douga, It has some great stuff on it. I saved it in my favorites! I looked for Miss McLeod's on it but it's not there.

I want to listen to a Scottish version of it to compare so I can hear what Bloomfield's talking about.

OOPS! Sorry Bloomfield, Didn't mean to get something started!

Kathy

bassnwhistle · Post by **bassnwhistle** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:50 pm

I recently mentioned this book on a recent post on the main whistle site, but it's worth mentioning again. The Celtic Fake Book by Hal Leonard Publishing Corporation ISBN:0634017276 has airs, jigs, reels, hornpipes and all manner of Celtic music lovingly separated (in the index) into Irish, Scottish, Welsh and other origins. That might give you a taste of some of the differences.
For a listing of songs in the book check out
http://www.encoremusic.com/recorder/1702233.htm
Ian

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 10:33 am

We seem to be getting to fundamental issues straight away on this forum! It's also serendipitous that "Miss McLeod's" should be one of the first tunes discussed alongside this thread.

I think I can subscribe to everything which I've seen on this thread, though I do rather like the jig of slurs as a melody rather than as a mantra, so I'm not sure if it's the best example to have picked to illustrate what I think is a fair point, based more on intuition than demonstrable fact.

Some tune books have denatured the title "Miss McLeod's" to the extent of spelling it "Miss McCloud's", which makes its Scottish origin slightly harder to detect. But, just for the record, Séamus Ennis was wont to proclaim in his most sonorous tones that " the correct title is "Mrs McLeod of Rothsay's Reel". So there's my two €cents.

Feadan · Post by **Feadan** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 10:41 am

Bloomfield wrote:
...you find simple and repetitive tunes that are a bit less intricate (and dare I say subtle), but that can give you a great trance-like feeling. Examples would be the Jig of Slurs or The Anvil. You know, lots of appregios, repetitions, few differences between parts, that sort of thing.

A think that a good deal of this phenomenon is due to the fact that there are a good many Scottish bagpipe tunes played on other instruments. It is not unusual for a pipe tune to have a theme that repeats with variations on each repetition. A prime example is "Crossing the Minch" which can be heard under another name (I forget what) in the Cape Breton fiddle repertoire. “The Jig of Slurs” was in fact written for the bagpipe by Pipe Major G. S. McLennan. I haven’t heard “The Anvil” but would guess it is probably a GHB tune as well. I would imagine that this tradition of repetition has it’s roots in piobaireachd playing which certainly takes the cake for repetitiveness. Not my cup of tea at all. The GHB connection gives another characteristic of Scottish music in that you will find a good many tunes in Mixolydian mode as that is the scale of the pipes.

Cheers,
David

Pat Cannady · Post by **Pat Cannady** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:30 pm

Aww, piobaireachd is beautiful! But not exactly what I'd call "party music".

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 8:58 am

The Irish Bull is alive and kicking: here we are on a brand new forum about Irish music, and one of the first topics is Scottish music

- and all this before we even reach the first agenda item, which is, as Brendan Behan would point out, The Split!

I agree entirely with the remark about piobaireachd: when you hear the right music played solo on them, you don't even notice the limited compass of the "war pipes" (GHB to our US friends). It's army-style pipe bands playing two-octave tunes sawn off in the middle that gave the instrument a bad name.

[ This Message was edited by: Roger O'Keeffe on 2002-08-02 10:59 ]

Feadan · Post by **Feadan** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 9:13 am

On 2002-08-02 10:58, Roger O'Keeffe wrote:
It's army-style pipe bands playing two-octave tunes sawn off in the middle that gave the instrument a bad name.

This piper agrees 100%! I hate it when I hear tunes inappropriately applied to pipes. IMHO, one of the worst fudges to "make" a tune fit (as sometimes occurs)is changing the key in the middle of it. Yuck!!!

-David

[ This Message was edited by: Feadan on 2002-08-02 12:33 ]

Wizzer · Post by **Wizzer** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 11:41 am

Celtic forum is a better and more appropriate name: Bloomfield might be forgetting his roots when referring to Irish or Scottish music. We need to appreciate the Celtic music in all its derivatives.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 11:50 am

I think the opening statement of the forum was pretty clear.
And let's not go into the 'Celtic' issue again. Taht's not what we are here for.