OT - Forgiveness

[glauber]

Forgiveness is a major theme of the recently past Jewish High Holiday season, and this exact issue is addressed.

Somebody should think of bringing this religion to Palestine.

[TyroneShoelaces]

If you are referring to Tyrone, my guess is it's sarcasm, but it's a little hard to tell from what direction.

BTW, it's Mister Shoelaces to you, Bub!

[dubhlinn]

I worked alongside two Tyrone men for many years and they both had sarcasm worked out to a fine art. 'Twas a brave man who took them boys on in a bit of bantering.

Slan,
D.

[Walden]

Two storey log house built by my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather, in 1797.

If anyone's interested, here is more on the history. Bear in mind, I am not descended from John Ross, but from John McDonald and from Daniel Ross.

http://roadsidegeorgia.com/site/rosshouse.html

The house is a dogtrot cabin.

[TyroneShoelaces]

Two storey log house built by my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather, in 1797.

If anyone's interested, here is more on the history. Bear in mind, I am not descended from John Ross, but from John McDonald and from Daniel Ross.

http://roadsidegeorgia.com/site/rosshouse.html

The house is a dogtrot cabin.

An interesting piece of history, Walden. It must do your heart good to have something from that far back in your family's history that you can still connect with. I went searching for my family's past in Ireland. All that remains of the township where they came from are empty green fields and mountains, although it still felt good to see the land that they lived on as farmers.

BTW, what is a "dogtrot cabin"?

[Walden]

BTW, what is a "dogtrot cabin"?

Two cabins, side by side, with a roofed structure over both, and a common wooden porch. Often, after someone had settled on a place a while, he'd enlarge his home, by turning the small, hastily constructed, cabin into a dogtrot. They were called dogtrots, as dogs would use the space of the porch between the two cabins as shelter.

These were a common form of house here.

[Darwin]

BTW, what is a "dogtrot cabin"?

Two cabins, side by side, with a roofed structure over both, and a common wooden porch. Often, after someone had settled on a place a while, he'd enlarge his home, by turning the small, hastily constructed, cabin into a dogtrot. They were called dogtrots, as dogs would use the space of the porch between the two cabins as shelter.

These were a common form of house here.

Quite a few of my schoolmates in Mississippi (1949-51) lived in houses like that. They called the space in the middle a "dog run". It was my impression that they were built like that from scratch, but I don't really know that for sure.

People used to sleep out there on pallets when it was really hot, with mosquito nets hung over strings stretched from one side to the other. It's funny, but I don't even recall electric fans from that period. I know we had a huge window fan in South Texas in 1951-52, and thought that it was a wonderful thing.

[Darwin]

I suppose that to balance the sex thing, I should quote from Rain and Snow, which appears on two of my newest CDs (Chieftains and Lonesome Sisters):
........

Here's another one in which forgiveness seems to have been in short supply: Knoxville Girl.
[...]
This is one of the most disturbing songs I know; the very matter-of-factness makes it far more shocking than anything by, say, recent rappers who set out to shock. Perhaps the most disturbing aspect is that we are never told the reason for the murder, as though that was just what you'd expect to happen while taking an evening stroll with your sweetheart in Knoxville.

In spite of the lyrics, that's one of my favorite songs to sing. The deadpan approach isn't uncommon.

The motive's unclear in Tom Dooley, too.

In Banks of the Ohio, the motive was "because she would not marry me".

In Omie Wise (Ommie Wise, Naomie Wise), it's because she was pregnant.

In Pretty Polly, it's because "your past reputation's been a trial to me".

In Down in the Willow Garden (with a melody vaguely similar to Sally Gardens), the killer says, "My father often told me that money would set me free, if I would murder that dear little girl, whose name was Rose Connolly", but there's no mention of a motive. (Bill and Charlie Monroe called their version Rose Connolly, I think.)

Jealousy was the motive in Little Glass of Wine. I never understood that one. At least in Wild Bill Jones, the guy shoots his rival, rather than his girl friend.

Drugs (cocaine in some versions, alcohol in others) was the cause in Little Sadie. (Johnny Cash did an almost Western Swing version as Cocaine Blues.)

We don't even know who shot Poor Ellen Smith, much less why.

MacAffee's Confession blames the killing of his wife on the influence of his girlfriend, Miss Hattie Gray.

In the case of Everyday Dirt, catching his wife with another man leads John to physical abuse after he finds that the other man had made the mistake of hiding up inside the chimney, sitting on the pot rack pole (although it does end in a kind of forgiveness in this version):

Then John built on a rousing fire
Just to suit his own desire.
His wife got out with a free good will,
"Don't do that, for the man you'll kill!"

Then John reached up and down he fetched him
Like a coon when a dog had ketched him.
He blacked his eyes and then did better:
He kicked him out right on his setter.

Then his wife she crawled in under the bed,
And he pulled her out by the hair of the head.
" And when I'm gone, remember then!"
He kicked her where the chinches had been.

Now, the law went down and John went up,
He didn't have the chance of a yaller pup,
They sent him down to the old chain gang
For beatin' his wife, the dear little thing.

Well, John didn't worry, John didn't cry
But when he got back home, he socked her in the eye.
They took him right back to the old town jail
But his wife got lonesome and she paid his bail.


Some less lethal misogyny is made to sound like fun in quite a few songs. This couplet appears in several dance tunes:

If I had a scolding wife, I sure would whup her some
I'd run my finger down her throat and gag her with my thumb


The first line of this one is also the title:

It's a shame to whip your wife on Sunday
It's a shame to whip your wife on Sunday
When you've got...
    Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday...
It's a shame to whip your wife on Sunday

The times they are a-changin'--fer shore.

[Walden]

It was my impression that they were built like that from scratch, but I don't really know that for sure.

If, by this, you mean built on that design to start with, and not added onto as an afterthought, I'd say you were surely right in so assuming.

[Flyingcursor]

Well, not to put this back on track or anything but I want you all to know I forgive you.

/piously glides back to corner to sit smugly in righteousness.

[Gary]

Forgiveness is the scent a flower leaves behind on the heel that crushed it.

[Walden]

Forgiveness is the scent a flower leaves behind on the heel that crushed it.

Amen.

[Wombat]

I suppose that to balance the sex thing, I should quote from Rain and Snow, which appears on two of my newest CDs (Chieftains and Lonesome Sisters):
........

Here's another one in which forgiveness seems to have been in short supply: Knoxville Girl.
[...]
This is one of the most disturbing songs I know; the very matter-of-factness makes it far more shocking than anything by, say, recent rappers who set out to shock. Perhaps the most disturbing aspect is that we are never told the reason for the murder, as though that was just what you'd expect to happen while taking an evening stroll with your sweetheart in Knoxville.

In spite of the lyrics, that's one of my favorite songs to sing. The deadpan approach isn't uncommon.

The motive's unclear in Tom Dooley, too.
..................

I like Knoxville Girl a lot too, which is why it came to mind so readily. I've never performed it though, but wouldn't rule it out.

Actually a friend pointed out after my earlier post that there is a hint of the motive; the almost throwaway allusion to her 'roving eyes.' So he probably killed her in a fit of jealous rage. I overlooked it I suppose because I would never regard 'roving eyes' as coming even close to being enough to explain murder.

I don't think what's chilling is the matter-of-fact recitation of events. There are fairly matter-of-fact songs about murders where everybody behaves either in a modern way or in a manner befitting their time and station. Matty Groves is like that: it's sad and defiant but not chilling in anything like the same way as Knoxville Girl is. As performed by Sandy Denny, Matty Groves is almost a feminist anthem.

Perhaps what is so disturbing about Knoxville Girl is that the story seems to be told from 'the inside' by the psychotic killer himself. I don't have any professional or even second hand knowledge of such people but the song seems to make most sense on this assumption. Normal people want to know why and in Matty Groves you find out. In Knoxville Girl the reason is presented as an insignificant aside, only hinted at, and the whole song carries the suggestion that, in circumstances like this, killing is just what you do. It doesn't have to be explained. Contrast this casualness with the almost obsessive attention to insignificant detail. Chilling.

[cowtime]

BTW, what is a "dogtrot cabin"?

Two cabins, side by side, with a roofed structure over both, and a common wooden porch. Often, after someone had settled on a place a while, he'd enlarge his home, by turning the small, hastily constructed, cabin into a dogtrot. They were called dogtrots, as dogs would use the space of the porch between the two cabins as shelter.

These were a common form of house here.

Thanks for the link Walden. I was wondering where the house was.

There are still quiet a few of those houses left around here, many still in use and covered with clapboards or (shuddering in horror - siding). Underneath the skin, the original is just like that. We call the "breezeway" a dogtrot too.

[Darwin]

Perhaps what is so disturbing about Knoxville Girl is that the story seems to be told from 'the inside' by the psychotic killer himself. I don't have any professional or even second hand knowledge of such people but the song seems to make most sense on this assumption. Normal people want to know why and in Matty Groves you find out. In Knoxville Girl the reason is presented as an insignificant aside, only hinted at, and the whole song carries the suggestion that, in circumstances like this, killing is just what you do. It doesn't have to be explained. Contrast this casualness with the almost obsessive attention to insignificant detail. Chilling.

There aren't that many murder ballads in the first person. Here's a nasty one, The Secret of the Waterfall. I like the melody--especially the chorus, but I can't bring myself to sing it.

Chorus:
    Down by the waterfall
    Where the waters run so cool
    There no secrets ever fall
    From the lips of the fool

Jeniffer was seventeen, the same age as I
She had lived next door to us since we were five
She knew I loved her dearly, I told her many times
And I looked forward to the day that she would be all mine

One more year of school we thought, then wedding bells would ring
But the hand of fate has ways of changing everything
I walked upon the two of them down by the waterfall
Jeniffer and Jimmy Jones, they saw me not at all

Jimmy Jones was married and had a family
And I just couldn't understand why they did this to me
Both were scared, but all they thought I'd do was tell his wife
Their faces turned to masks of fear before I took their life

People thought that Jeniffer just up and ran away
Jimmy Jones, who disappeared, is a mystery today
Many years have passed but vividly I still recall
And only I alone know what's behind the waterfall