Bellows opinion

CJ DIXON · Post by **CJ DIXON** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:18 am

I am a new maker and I welcome feedback from everyone as to what they like and dislike about your bellows? Also, can I ask, how important is it to stay traditional with design/materials versus altering one or the other to increase the ease of use, comfort or performance?

Thank you,
CJ Dixon

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:28 am

Wecome CJ..bellows thats kinda like the heart of the set.Working away in the background but not seen.Thats the way I look at it.It needs to have two critical functionsa)Airtight allowing the maximum amount of air to travel easily with the minum amount of effort to the Bag(the lungs of the set)...b) Comfortable allowing prolonged use without chafing or causing the waist or arm to become sore.
If ye achieve both of these functions then the rest is immaterial as is the material you use to construct them with.Many makers tend to think of padding as an afterthought ,or not at all,instead of in the original construction/design.An aweful lot of time can be spent making bellows look pretty but if they are not functional then they are of no use really....
Slan Go Foill
Uilliam

djm · Post by **djm** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:49 am

One thing I particularly like about my current set of Joe Kennedy bellows is having a sturdy metal hinge. The feeling is quite different than a floppy leather hinge, or no hinge support at all. This helps the bellows stay in one place, they don't skew out at odd angles to themselves, and it feels to me like I need much less effort to work them. Joe crafts his own hinge, and I feel it is very much worth the slight extra cost.

djm

eric_smith · Post by **eric_smith** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:07 pm

My G. Wooff belows also has a metal hinge, and I do feel that the action is a bit more efficient that leather or cord bound belows. Others have argued that having the hinge flexible allows top panel to follow the natural motion of the arm, but I feel this actually leads to more work.

Eric

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:12 pm

Efficient
On average, 4-5 good strokes should fill a bag.

djm, a rigid hinged bellows can make it difficult to reach down when adjusting drones, so as long as the leather hinging keeps the clappers together at the front some side-to-side movement is OK and to some pipers preffered.

eric_smith · Post by **eric_smith** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:44 pm

[quote="Tony"]Efficient
On average, 4-5 good strokes should fill a bag.
quote]

I meant in terms of overall movement when topping off the bag, not initially filling it. I don't generally have to move my bellows arm much at all while keeping the bag filled. This is helped in part by the bellows not flopping around, I believe.

I suspect you're right about it being harder to adjust the drones. In my case, however, the base drone is "short" by design and sits up close to the middle drone, so it's not much of a reach to stop it off. I don't think I appreciated this fact of Geoff's bass drone until now.

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:00 pm

Tony wrote:Efficient
On average, 4-5 good strokes should fill a bag.
.

Tony..4-5 strokes to initially fill the bag is not efficient.!!No more than 2 or two and a half is efficient.I fill my Rogge sets easily with this.....
Uilliam

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:05 pm

djm wrote:The feeling is quite different than a floppy leather hinge, or no hinge support at all.
djm

That much is obvious...and would leave ye with a totally useless bellows! why would ye want a set of bellows with no hinge?:boggle:
Uilliam

djm · Post by **djm** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:19 pm

Uilliam wrote:why would ye want a set of bellows with no hinge?

I don't know why not, but there are lots of bellows out there with a strip of leather, or leather cords, or sometimes nothing at all for a hinge. I have had the "nothing at all" type, and didn't know any better until I got this set with the metal hinge. I don't see too many bellows with a metal hinge, and felt it worth noting here, as opinions were being solicited.

Tony wrote:a rigid hinged bellows can make it difficult to reach down when adjusting drones

Agreed, this is something to watch out for, but is manageable.

djm

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:58 pm

Uilliam wrote:
Tony wrote:Efficient
On average, 4-5 good strokes should fill a bag.
.
Tony..4-5 strokes to initially fill the bag is not efficient.!!No more than 2 or two and a half is efficient.I fill my Rogge sets easily with this.....
Uilliam

Yes Uilliam, on a small bag that's true. On an earlier topic you mentioned your preference for a smaller bag.
A while back Davy Stephenson made comments relative to larger bags. He said the bellows should pump about a liter (litre) per stroke and a bag of 4 to 5 liters would just about fill with 4 strokes.

Regardless to the actual number of strokes needed to fully inflate a bag, a good bellows needs to provide ample output to stay ahead of the system.

CJ DIXON · Post by **CJ DIXON** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:51 pm

This is what I have heard so far: 1) air tight 2) sufficient air flow into the bag (1 litre per stroke give or take) 3) There seems to be some debate over a metal hinge versus flexible leather. The compromise would be a stiff hinge that does not allow for a great deal of movement outside of the natural "pumping" motion but enough to allow for drone adjustment.

What about padding? I fabricate my bellows with an elbow pad which I feel is very necessary for extended playing but what about padding against the user's body? Would this be of great benefit?

Thanks again,
CJ Dixon

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:43 am

Padding? yes, especially if you're going to make a (good) name for yourself.

Check out Michael Dow's bellows, regarded by many as some of the best there is.
http://www.archcarving.com/Bagpipes%20% ... _pipes.htm

Try to keep the wooden clappers light. 1/2" thick expecially when using Oak

MikeyLikesIt · Post by **MikeyLikesIt** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:49 am

I just finished stitching and attaching padding to my bellows, and I'd say that a little padding against the body definitely feels nice. Being pretty boney, the wood would always make my hip bone sore during extended play. Anyway, that's my two cents, hope it is of some help.

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:59 am

[quote="Tony
Yes Uilliam, on a small bag that's true. On an earlier topic you mentioned your preference for a smaller bag.
.[/quote]

Depends what ye call a small bag My Rogge is approximately10"x14" (25.5cm deep x 35cm length) not including the neck,which I guess is an average size as it wasnae special order or anything,just bog standard.I also made a bigger bag 13"deep x 17"width excluding neck and that fills in 2 to 3 strokes..
The padding is important especially to youngsters and those of a smaller frame as the bellows can be quite painfull,as I mentioned with chaffing and if ye have already chaffed the skin it tends to linger thereby continuing the problem and could possibly turn kids off if they think this is the sort of ordeal that is considered normal..
The hinge debate is a complete red herring by the way wether it be metal or leather matters not, provided your method serves its purpose and is secure.Flapping leather or whatever shews poor quality and is not an indicator of the usefulness of leather versus metal.I have a set of bellows by Rogge which is 12 years old and the leather hinge is as efficient as the day I got it.
I would avoid using oak as it is as porous as hell and ye would have to seal it or the air would leak away through it.Varnish would seal it but it would wear away and why give yersel extra work.
10"(27cm) seems to be the optimum distance for the widest part of the gusset between the larger ends of the paddles.
Ye could also think about glueing the gusset to the paddles and avoid using tacks or sewing as a)its quicker and b)your not introducing dozens of little holes into an otherwise airtight situation.
29cm for the inlet hole should do ye.

Slan Go Foill
Uilliam

CJ DIXON · Post by **CJ DIXON** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:58 am

In addition: 4) 1/2" paddles to keep overall weight down 5) padding on the paddle against the body

Thank you for the dimensions Uilliam, they are consistent with mine. My leather is adhered to the paddle using an adhesive as well as the upholstery nails. The nails increase the strength of the connection of the leather to the wood and I personally like the cosmetic look it creates. What is eveyone's opinion on upholstery nails?

I have never had any leaking issues with oak even without the stain or finishing but thank you as this leads to my next question: Is there a strong preference to the species of wood used? I mainly use oak these days because of it's beautiful grain characteristics and it's robustness while I realize the tendency of many makers to lean towards the more traditional woods such as rosewood etc. How important is this to everyone and what is your particular preference?

CJ Dixon