Using a Tuner

[eskin]

Here's what I use, supports just intonation and setting the scale root:

http://www.petersontuners.com/products/ ... /index.cfm

Its the perfect, abeit a bit pricey, solution to all your tuning troubles...

[Pelham]

Pelham,
Hmmmmmm! If you are playing only one note, in this case A,
how do you know which intonation you are using? I thought that the equil intonation rule would only apply when you went to the 2nd octave A, which on the meter should be sharp.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to play the A and tune the drones, then play the G and re adjust the drones a bit to get an average.

All the best,
Pat

So here' s my take on it:

From Dave Hegarty's chart (I have done the math before myself, but don't have it around to double check him) a "just G" is 1.96 cents flat and "just A" is 1.96 cents sharp of the tuner. The best thing to do would probably be to tune your "A' to 1.96 cents sharp of A440 or your 'G' to 1.96 cents flat, and then tune your drones to 'D' on the meter @0cents deviation. Of course, as all of us know who've messed with a tuner, the 2 cent variation is practically imperceptible on that needle, and as Brian posted, is really within the variance of bag pressure, temperature fluxuations, etc and not to be worried about.

The other method is just to use the tuner to get the pipes (which we are assuming are in tune with themselves) near A440. Once that is done, you can use whichever note you want on the chanter to tune the drones. If the pipemaker made the pipes correctly, the chanter will be tuned with a just-intonation, which means, if you hear a "just 4th" better than a "just 5th", then use the G instead of the A to tune the drones. For a perfect 5th, there will be no "beats" when the drone D and the chanter A are in tune, so that's what I use. Since the chanter is in tune with itself, tuning drones to the chanter and tuning the chanter to A440 are to entirely separable tasks -- but I know you know, because you already said that in your first post!

As far as the intonation rule only applying in the second octave, maybe it is physiologically easier for us to hear the difference at the higher frequencies, but from a physics standpoint it still applies in the first octave as well.

Cheers,
Pelham

[Pelham]

Ok, here it is laid out for anyone who's interested -- the difference in Just vs. Equal temperament. You'll probably wished you hadn't asked!

A scale is made up of 12 semitones (12 half-steps). To make a major scale, the intervals between notes are: whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half. Where "whole" = 2 half steps.

Try it for any starting note -- you'll see it works.

Definition of an Octave: An octave is a doubling in frequency. So for A=440 Hz, the A an octave above it is A'=880Hz.

So, that seems to mean if we have 12 "half steps" in an octave, we should divide them equally right? Well, not exactly. As you see, frequency DOUBLES every octave, which means we need something closer to a lograhythmic breakdown, not an equal one.

Complicating the issue further is the fact that our ear doesn't like these equal steps -- what sounds pleasing, (and there are some physical reasons for this having to do with wavelength ratios, etc.) are whole number ratios. So that is how Just intonation breaks down the scale.

So, one asks, if our ear likes the way just intonation sounds, why not use these whole number ratios? The problem is, as Lorenzo noted, that if you want a "D" scale, and use these ratios, then the notes will be way off of what you want for a "C" scale. So for instruments like piano, this would make everything seem out of tune except for one particular key that was tuned with these ratios. The answer is "equal temperment" which sets all these divisions equally. So no key is perfectly in tune, but none of them are too far off. Here's the chart that someone asked for earlier:

Scale Step*****Just Intonation (ratio) [cents]*****Equal Temperment: ratio [cents]
1***** (1) [0]***** 2^(0/2) [0]
2***** (9/8=1.125) [204]***** 2^(2/12) [200]
3***** (5/4 = 1.25) [386]***** 2^(4/12) [400]
4***** (4/3 = 1.333) [498]***** 2^(5/12) [500]
5***** (3/2 = 1.5) [610]***** 2^(7/12) [700]
6***** (5/3 = 1.6667 [884]***** 2^(9/12) [900]
7***** (15/8 = 1.875) [1088]***** 2^(11/12) [1100]
8***** (2) [1200]***** 2^(12/12) [1200]

Sorry for the alignment issues but the C&F website doesn't like my tab delimited list. You can see that the Just and Equal are separated by the *****'s

Take a look at it, and see what happens when you start on "C" and write out the frequencies for a C scale in just intonation, then start on a "D" from that same scale and make a "D" scale in just intonation. Now compare the notes and their assigned frequencies and you'll see that they do not match.

[srfmowman]

So in simpleton laymans terms,
1. I tune my chanter's A to A440 and tune my tenor drone to a pitch with no beats against the chanter (drone shows D on tuner).
2. I shut off chanter, and tune baritone drone to a pitch with no beats against the tenor drone.
3. I shut off tenor drone and tune bass drone to a pitch with no beats against the baritone drone.
4. I shut off baritone drone and check tenor against base for beats.
5. I check all three drones together. If there is a beat, it is usually removed with a small adjustment of the baritone drone.
6. I check drones against all the notes on the chanter (always seems to be good at this point, don't know what I would do if it wasn't).
7. Ask my 17 year old, who has an extraordinary sense of pitch, how it sounds.
Is this a reasonable procedure or should I be doing something different?

On the tuner topic, I have found that my ear is starting to learn the notes after much use of the tuner. I can now tell if the note is sharp or flat when it is close. Live and learn.


John

[djm]

Pelham, I would like to employ your chart. What are the calculations (basic arithmetic) to do this?

Let's say I have a C# chanter practise set (no drones). I think my Bnat is a bit off. Maybe its that the chanter was designed so that the Bnat will blend better with drones. Maybe its that my reed is off - something I could fix. Maybe its that my ear is wrong. So here I am with my just intonation guitar tuner, and the only fixed value I know is A=440Hz. How do I take your chart and apply it to the above hypothetical situation?

Thx,

djm

[Lorenzo]

...if we are tuning to A=440Hz, but we want to play with others, then would we tune a B set to equal B or just B?

Also, even though people are saying "just intonation", the UPs are always tuned to the drones, so can we really say that all notes on UPs are truly justly tuned?

djm, no need to apologize or you'll get us all started! It's not a simple thing...I'm still learning thanks to probing question like on this board.

The simple answer is this: Tuning to a guitar tuner, you'll be in B Equal. But so what? The difference is imaterial, IMO. Your B chanter is tuned to Just already (the toneholes are sized and spaced accordingly within itself). The chanter reed needs to be set in the seat to accommodate this perfect B of the chanter. The drones then need to be tuned pure to the 4th or 5th of the chanter. Either one is going to be close enough. Most pipers do the 5th. On a D set, I do know pipers who prefer tuning the D drones to the G on the chanter, but very few.

With A=440 being the standard, the bass drone on your B pipes should be B=61.735 c.p.s., the baritone would be B=123.471, and the tenor B=246.942.

The point of your question is tuning a B set to modern standard pitch so you can play with others. Since the chanter is sized to standard modern pitch, so you simply need the right reed set in the seat at the proper depth. This would show up as pretty much right on with all the cheap guitar tuners, even though they are geared for Equal. The difference seems imaterial to me. Other variables will cause it to be off more than the difference. The cheap guitar tuners just don't have the micro tolerance of the more expensive tuners. The red and green lights (or needle) are only in a general range. You wouldn't use these for tuning a piano. BTW, the reason why they work so well for guitars is because the tuner is geared to get the compromise right for you, ie, if the saddle and nut on the guitar are right (and the frets and sounding length). Otherwise, as any guitar player knows, you can tune the strings all pure, but that only sounds good on one chord. The next chord sounds off and you have to retune. Pure, or Just, is only good for one key or one basic chord on fixed instruments. It's tolerable in a couple other related keys too. A well-tuned guitar is a compromise tuning..."a series of tolerable imperfections." So is a piano. They are both chromatic with 12 semitones.

The long answer, as I understand it so far, and if only to bore you, is this: A=440Hz is only 440Hz at A49 on the piano keyboard. 49 means the 49th key up from the bottom. A=440Hz is near the center of your hearing range. It's right above what we call middle C on a piano...the piano being the instrument that contains the lowest and highest hearing ranges (for most people). In Equal Temperament, to find the proper number for A#/Bb50 is to multiply 440 x 1.0594631. That means the next note up from A49 would be A#(or Bb)=466.164. 440 c.p.s. means cycles per second. In Equal, all notes are equally off 1.0594631 cents from each other. There is one hundred cents between semitones and 1200 in an octave. Since octaves are pure, the A above A=440 would be A=880. It's only between the octaves that we compromise. Every octave of evey note on the piano is pure, so this offness is the same within every octave.

I hope this is right. Someone will correct me if it isn't, or I'll reread this and see the error myself!

[djm]

Lorenzo, thanks. I know some of this, but am still trying to put all the pieces together. e.g. 1 cycles per second (cps) = 1 Hertz (Hz). Also, my tuner is a Seiko ST-909, with a physical arm on the meter, not lights or LCD, and can also be manually recalibrated per note (if yer nuts enough).

But you have given me one of the "magic" numbers I need to move forward, which is "1.0594631". So to continue your example, and to ensure I have this correct in my little brain:

A49 = 440 Hz
A# = 440 x 1.0594631 = 466.164 Hz
B = 440 x 1.0594631 x 1.0594631 = 493.883 Hz
etc.

Similarly confused and heading in the opposite direction, the G below A = 440 Hz would be

G = A[=9]49[/size=9] @ 440 Hz / 1.0594631 = 415.305 Hz
F = 440 / 1.0594631 / 1.0594631 = 391.995 Hz
etc.

If you can't tell, I am arithmatically challenged. Numbers make my brain hurt. But if I have enough information, I can program a spreadsheet, once I know what the calculations are, to work out the whole list.

If the difference between all half-notes (semitones) is a constant 1.0594631 in equal intonation (temperment), I should be able to work out what all the frequencies are for any pitch of UPs. Once I can find the equivalent note values in just intonation, I can quickly calculate the difference between each and determine what the difference would be on any guitar tuner.

If I can figure out how to do it, I am thinking of retuning one of my synths to see what the difference is between equal intonation and UP tuning. I know that some notes like Cnat on a D set are detuned a bit to match the drones better, so playing each note against an appropriate drone should show where the sweet spot on UPs should be.

I believe that at the end of this exercise I will find out that the differences are microtonal, beyond my ear to distinguish, that I am being totally anal, and should have spent the time and effort practising piping.


djm

[Joseph E. Smith]

All of these calculations and fine tuning points are of good value, but I have to wonder what they used to tune thier pipes to in the past centuries? For me, there comes a point where you have to break away from the entrapments of modern technology and use your own ear to determine what sounds good to you....unless, of course, it is in your future to play with your local symphony orchestra. Personally, it annoys me to no end watching someone take an hour to fine tune their axe to a portable tuner, then play a chord or note, and start all over again.

[Lorenzo]

djm, in your calculation, you asked if going the other direction would work. Yes, but you meant G#, not G. 440 divided by 1.0594631 = 415.305 c.p.s. for G#.

Joseph, that's why I consider all this fuss about Just vs. Equal to be a little silly, at least for the UP. Other variances have more of an affect than the difference in temperaments...like weather, reed scrape, staples, cane sources, bag preassure, bore design, fingering alternative (closed/open holes), etc., etc. Imagine counting 1 beat in 5 seconds vs. O beats in 5 seconds. Eventually there's going to be some beat...even where you think its been tuned Just. Pressure will do it. That what you look for in Equal 5ths vs. Just 5ths. 4ths are a little more, not much.

Just to eleaberate a little, there's several ways to tune an octave (the 12 semitones) on any fixed chromatic instrument. On stringed instruments you can usually hit 2 or 3 notes at the same time (more with piano). On flute type instruments, where you can only hit one note at a time, you'd space and size the holes to a tuner, or to another fixed instrument like a piano. You can use a machine that has already been calibrated, or tune by ear, listening to the natural intonation and the beats. When setting the octave scale on a piano, I use the F to F method around middle C. Some use A to A.

Whatever, there are a series of 3rd, 4ths, and 5ths in this octave. This is called the Temperament Octave. Starting with middle C, I could tune it to a fork or a machine. After that, I use a series of 5ths and 4ths, back and forth, all the way up the octave. So the lower F tunes to middle C to, then G to C, then D to G, then A to D, then E to A, then the B to E, then the low F to the high F. At this point I cheat and tune the Bb to the high F since it's an easy 5th. This completes all the white keys, and one black. On to the rest of the black keys. The white B has already been tuned, so the F# is tuned to the B, then the C# to the F#. The G# is tuned to the C# and the Eb tuned to the G#.

Now the big momet!!!! The Bb has already been tuned to the high F...it can't be changed. The moment of truth has arrived. I hit the Eb to the Bb. It had better be right using Equal. If it isn't right (sounds sour or painful), the tuner must start all over. The most common problem why it doesn't come out right is because the tuner tuned the 4ths and 5ths too pure.

The system of tuning 12 semitones jumps back and forth between 4ths and 5ths. They are used because they are the purist and are the notes with the widest spread in the octave...where the ear hears tuning problems easiest. The 6ths are related to the 3rds. A 3rd above is a 6th below...same note only an octove lower/higher. Like the 3rds, 6ths are the most impure in the Equal Temperament Octave Scale. The 7ths just aren't used in tuning, nor are the 2nds.

Guess what? If I had tuned every 4th and 5th pure, with no beats nor compomise, the last interval of Bb to Eb would have been off by 24 cents. That ¼ of a semitone!!! Best to have every 4th and 5th off a little than to have this one off a huge amount. It's this way with any chromatic fixed instrument. And...this 24 cents...that's why the 12 semitones are off by about 2 cents. 2x12=24.

But, in another system of tuning, I could have started out with the low F and tuned the octave in pure 3rds (major and minor 3rds). After completing all these intervals up through the octave, the last one would come out 42 cents off. There is no way to tune a fixed chromatic instrument, with 12 semitones, strickly to Just. It can't be done! Even with a flute, oboe, sax, or even a chromatic uilleann pipe chanter -- that would be a lot of key levers!! Tuning the last interval on any of these woodwinds would present the same problem. With chromatic, every tonehole has to be adjusted a little to sound better against a growing number of notes. But a whistle, with only six toneholes can be pure like the diatonic accordian. The other notes are corrected by alternate fingerings. I has only a few fixed notes that have to sound good against each other. The F# is the biggest problem. It's a 3rd up from D. It's off the most. It also is subject to greater pressure differences. Either the upper or lower F# sounds best, usually not both. Any 3rd is off the most, even on a Equal tuned piano or guitar. The less strings, like a violin, the less you have to worry. The other notes get corrected by a fretless board. Not so with guitar (six strings and fixed frets).

[Joseph E. Smith]

For the mandolin family, guitars, electric basses and the other fretted instruments I will use a tuner to get the instrument within the ball park. The rest I do by ear.

Non fretted instruments, violin, viola, cello, bass etc, I usually tune one note to the tuner (the A, and the D on cello and viola) and the rest of the strings by ear.

My pipes, I tune the A to a whistle or my piano, then I tune the drones so they 'ring' with the A, G in the first octave and f# in the second octave. If these three notes combined with the drones 'ring', I am a happy camper. Tuning the pipes, as it seems to me, would be an even tougher job if you used an electronic tuner for all of the afore-mentioned notes. When playing with other musicians, I will tune the chanter (reed position in or out) and then the drones accordingly. Most of the time, folks are good about offering to tune to me, but it isn't usually a big deal as all instruments are really close. Fixed tuned instruments like the accordian and concertina etc, are examples of what everybody has to tune to.

I used to play with a guitarist in a rock-n-roll band who was very addicted to his tuner. After every song, he would retune his axe. This amounted to a lot of dead air on stage and my losing most of my top hair prematurely.

I think it may be an exercise in futility within the theater of the absurd to try and lean so heavily on portable tuners for the UPs... just a humble opinion.

[djm]

Hmm, all good points. I can't believe that a piano tuner wouldn't work all of this out ONE TIME and then re-use it for each subsequent instrument. I suppose different instruments might vary by string material and general body configuration, but at least you would have a quick reference chart to start from.

And really, that's all I am thinking about here. Work this stuff out one time, write it down, and then post it for others to use. I don't care to sit and retune constantly. I don't even want to think about tuning once. If I have a table of numbers that I know are accurate and specific to the UPs in any key, then I can quickly tune to that chart with little or no thought, knowing that I will be mostly in tune with myself and any other instruments I may be playing with, and concentrate on playing, instead of wondering why I sound like s**t today and trying to find the offender.

It seems it will be a lot of work to get this table accurate, but once done, it would be a big time saver, instead of sitting there straining to hear where the tuning has gone off.

Other input appreciated. This is a fruitful discussion for me.

djm

[Joseph E. Smith]

One thing I feel should be remembered by pipers, is that we aren't really playing one instrument, we're playing roughly 4 to 7+ instruments at the same time. This makes it nearly impossible to be spot on combining together chanter, drones and how ever many regs one may have. In addition, tuners vary, and I am unaware of a tuner designed specifically for tuning the Uilleann Pipes and all of its relatives.

[Ted]

I agree with Joseph. The way I use a tuner is to tune my tenor drone to D, tune the other drones to the tenor. I recheck that the drones are playing a solid D, then tune my chanter to the drones. A tuning fork in D will work as well as a tuner. I have seen more than one player (usually not a very experienced one) tune all reg. notes and drones to their electronic marvel, only to have the final result sound like crap. A tuner is a good servant but a terrible master. A good musician will train his ear to hear degrees of in/out of tuness. Pythagorean tuning is closer than just to what a good singer or fiddler will actually produce when sounding most in tune. A piano tuner adjusts the octaves a bit higher or wider as he moves up the keyboard than what a tuner shows. Therefore A=440 does not yield an A=3420 up the keyboard in a well tuned instrument, but somewhat higher. A piano tuner starts in the middle of the keyboard and adjusts octave widths to sound good BY EAR. Read Helmholtz in his pioneering work " On the Sensations of Tone".

Ted

[Ted]

Typo, that should be "On the Sensation of Tone", written in the late 1800's. I sometimes tune my drones to my reg's, as they are quite stable. It is interesting to listen to and watch Paddy Keenan tune up. I've never seen any pro players use a tuner much except to tune the root. What would one do with an old Egan set which wants to play somewhere between say B & C. The human ear, with training, is an extremely sensitive judge of tuning. Resist the temptation to become enslaved to a tuner. TRAIN YOUR EARS INSTEAD!

Ted

[djm]

Ted, wise words, no doubt. But I am extremely lazy. I can force myself to do any repugnant task once, but when that task is repetitive I start looking for alternatives. Thus the search for a tuning table to start off from.

I have sat with Joe Kennedy an entire day while he worked on tuning a set of regs - just the regs. An entire day, and he still wasn't 100% satisfied he'd nailed it. By that time I was so exhausted that I determined there had to be a better way. To my own fuzzy logic, working it out once, and then writing it down as a reference chart for future use, seems to be the best way to create a starting point, and then using the ears for the final tweaking.

How much does your set go out of tune week to week? How many hours do you spend retuning (if you bother to retune)? Wouldn't you like to cut that time in half or better? That is what I would like to achieve. Maybe my idea of a tuning chart as a starting off point is misguided (?). Does anyone have a better idea to reduce time spent tuning?

Thx,

djm