Upcoming essay on C-natural

JohnPalmer · Post by **JohnPalmer** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:09 pm

Are you talking about the avatars? (My wife doesn't think mine is very "manly")

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:54 am

My C nat roll:

OXXOOX (the c nat)
OXXXXX (the "cut")
OXXOOX (the c nat)
XXXOOX (the "pat")
OXXOOX (the c nat)

John S · Post by **John S** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:36 am

OXXXOX
Is the fingering I use on the whistles I make and it's good for cheap generation type whistles.
The C#/Cnat hole is the most difficult to get right, as it has to be in exactly the right place and to be the right size to allow the chosen cross-fingering to produce an in tune Cnat.

There are some nice ornamentation patterns available with this fingering.
Here is a GHPy one I use.
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
OXXOXX
OXXXXX
OXXXOX
Or you could just tap the E hole finger twice.
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
OXXXOX
"Double taps" instead of roles is a technique used by a local Irish flute player in his 70's and his playing is wonderful.

TTFN
John S

amar · Post by **amar** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:55 am

the only way i play cnat is:
OXXOOO
(or I half hole in case i slide to cnat)
I have only one whistle (dixon lowF narrow-bore) where cnat don't work that way, then I must play:
OXXXXO (which is the same way I play all cnats in the upper octave).
yep.

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:16 am

JohnPalmer wrote:Are you talking about the avatars? (My wife doesn't think mine is very "manly")

Au contrare... (spelling may be questionable... but don't!

)... IMHO, it takes some kahones to buck 'the norm' and post pink roses... hurray on ye!

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:07 am

I think the point that is never mentioned here between the ‘in tune’ fingerings of C natural is a crucial one. Intonation. There is no such thing as the one true c natural. Pat Mitchell talking about Seamus Ennis’ piping sometiem ago mentioned the tune ‘the College groves’ [or the ‘New Demesne’ as Ennis called it]. Pat at one time asked Ennis did he use a c sharp or a C natural in the tune (O’Neill gives the tune written in D major). Ennis replied, in style ‘a c natural, as it should be’. In fact though he uses three quite distinctly different c’s in different phrases.
This morning I was listening to Willie Clancy playing Sliabh na mBan on the whistle. He produced such a wonderfully beautiful intonation, really spot on in the context of the tune. Was he using any of these cross fingering charted in the first post of this thread. I wouldn’t think so. The c natural stands out in Willie’s music as a note of great nuance and character [like his sliding F, think about the issue of the flattened seventh in the different scales]. On the pipes he achieved this by (as Pat Mitchell describes it in ‘the Dance Music of Willie Clancy’) by ‘uncurling’ his finger, always keeping in contact wit h the edge of the hole so he could adjust the note’s pitch at will. This is a technique that works very well on the whistle. Which doesn’t mean he didn’t use other means to play C natural on the whistle when circumstances called for it, sometimes you can clearly hear him half hole the note.
So, what’s the best way to play c natural? I don’t know, there are many ways and, maybe contrary to the current opinions heard on this forum, you will maybe not need the one and only C natural all the time. The whistle is not a keyboard where you can push a button and have a ready made note at your disposal. You will have to humour the instrument and hit the correct pitch of the note [any note,. not just C nat] by adapting the way you play it, you need to use your ears and adjust the pitch of your notes. Sitting in front of an electronic tuner and have it tell you the ‘correct’ pitch is not really the musical option.

About rolls on C natural Bloomfield recently said that he never heard a whistle player whose stylistic choices he respected use a rolls on C natural. Well ditto, but he was actually agreeing with something I said in the first place. But if you must the sensible way to do it [taken again from the uilleann pipes and modified to suit the lack of thumbhole of the whistle] is as follows:

Finger C as OXXOXX or OXXOOX, use the index finger left to ’cut’ and ‘tap’ with the lower hand fingers you have taken off

High c natural can be half hole but if that’s a problem most whistles will play a harmonic good enough for most tunes when playing XOXXXO or XOOXXO

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:15 am

Peter Laban wrote:........
So, what’s the best way to play c natural? I don’t know, there are many ways and, maybe contrary to the current opinions heard on this forum, you will maybe not need the one and only C natural all the time. The whistle is not a keyboard where you can push a button and have a ready made note at your disposal. You will have to humour the instrument and hit the correct pitch of the note [any note,. not just C nat] by adapting the way you play it, you need to use your ears and adjust the pitch of your notes. Sitting in front of an electronic tuner and have it tell you the ‘correct’ pitch is not really the musical option.

............

Well said Peter!
I mean it.
Thanks.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:19 am

Peter, would that be illegal or too much work to make an MP3 recording of the tune you're talking about? I would love to hear that.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:21 am

That would be an ecumenical matter.

Which one? i am listening to a full CD of Willie's whistleplaying while writing

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:24 am

Darn! Well, any clip which has a very good example of CNat nuances you're talking about.

It's a CD you're talking about, not some old session recordings?

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:28 am

A second octave Cnat

XOOOXO

works well (second octave) on my Silkstone, though before this thread always used

OXXXXO which is sharp

Get a nice roll on
XOOOXO
too by lifting L1 and tapping R3

Here is a question:

If we put all the suggested fingerings in order of pitch produced. Do we get the same order for most whistles? I wouldn't expect it for all whistles.

Brian

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:37 am

bjs wrote:A second octave Cnat

XOOOXO

works well (second octave) on my Silkstone, though before this thread always used

O
Brian

that is interesting as a single finger does basically nothing on any of the whistles I have. two fingers down XOOXXO work on generation types though three fingers XOXXXO is probably slightly clearer, it was the best solution for a SYN. A Shaw Jerry sent me didn't respond at all to crossfingering a harmonic

I think this basically answers the other question, all whistles are (slightly) different, as are players

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:59 am

For me, Cnat is THE note in Irtrad pipes or whistle music (its "blue note"?).

It's too precious to be bothered about it being perfectly pitched, so depending on the particular make of instrument, all I want is a fingering that allows you to bend it as much as the humour takes you.

On yer average whistle, that's generally OXX O(X)(X), with the two O's opened gradually if it's a long note and perhaps kept slightly shaded or vibratoed with one or both of these fingers. (The bottom ones don't really matter, and either or both may be lifted in anticipation of the next note or still finding their way back down after the previous one). I like to think of this way of playing it as "choking the chicken", which would also make a rather good Clancyesque

name for a tune in which it featured prominently.

Dhrink! Feck! Rakish Paddy! (That would be a matter for down the back lane)

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:22 am

Food for thought, Jojo O'K. -- thanks a lot!
Btw, it concurs with what Peter commented about the several ways to play it in a single tune.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:30 am

Azalin wrote:Darn! Well, any clip which has a very good example of CNat nuances you're talking about.

It's a CD you're talking about, not some old session recordings?

A really good example of the expressive use of the c-natural and f-naturals is Willie's playing of Banish Misfortune (aka The Shady Groves of Peamount):

http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/ ... illie.html

You can hear it on the pipes with very interesting differences and similarities on The Pipering of Willie Clancy Vol 2. On that same CD is the slow air Twisting of the Hayrope (Sasadh an tSugain) with super bendy expressive "c-neutrals". On Vol 1 of The Pipering of Willie Clancy there is the Flogging (f-neutral) and of course the three-part Pipe on the Hob, a tune that lives and dies by the c-natural/neutral. It's all over, actually.

On that note: I was playing the Pipe on the Hob for Bill Ochs in my lesson last night and we talked about that c-natural/neutral thing. I've been shirking it for a while now, but I've realized that you must learn to half-hole the c-natural (and I include the curling that Peter mentions in that) to play the Pipe on the Hob and just about any Irish tune with sustained c-naturals well. While you might find a good pitch with one of the cross fingerings (oxxxox works best on the Generations I prefer), the music really needs that flexible pitch on that note and you have to be able to bend the c-natural upwards to create that tension.

So if I won't be posting much, it's because I am practicing my curled c-naturals.