Let's do it: Musican vs Collector (was silver thingie)

[Cayden]

In the thread about the silver Gizmo Stimps suggested a totally new thread on the music vs collection would be more appropriate. The subject has been cause for some vicious exchanges in the past. I recall the comment ’we talk about whistles here and read about music somewhere else’ and a lot of related material that basically told me to sod off if I thought we should talk about music here.

Maybe we should bite the bullet and do another round, I don’t think the twain shall ever meet, nor that they ever should. Thre's ample room for both views. I do hope both sides can get their point across without going all emotional and vicious.

My own position is probably half known by now: I don’t care at all about high end whistles. If a whistle would come on the market that would suit my needs better than the ones I have, I’d be the first to jump at it. The point is: I have not seen that whistle(yet??). In the meantime I am quite happy to do what I do on a generation type instrument. I think I am a crap whistle player anyway so I am not too bothered about spending a lot on the habit.

The high end whistles I have come across, were mostly in the hands of people arriving at the sessions I play. What stood out in general was the sheer volume of the things, unfortunately that is not a great thing in the hands of not so sensitive players. Even when Brassblower’s favourite whistle player positioned herself by the side of the stage on which we were playing with a blackwood and silver contraption the general question was ‘who is that loud woman?’ a less dominating whistle may have diverted the attention to the merits of her playing.

So firstly I really and honestly don’t like the sound of these yokes in the context of the music I play.
Another point I don’t like and that has been mentioned as a sideline in the silver thingie thread but it has been much stronger voiced in several private mails I received after speaking my mind in a bit contrary fashion: there is a certain pressure to obtain these instruments, ‘people will frown upon you if you arrive at a Seattle session with anything less than a Burke’ someone said. Yuk.

There is another effect I resent about the collecting bug. This is a general objection that doesn’t apply as much to collecting of whistles (because there are enough suitable mass produced instruments on the market) but it is something I see and feel very strongly about in regards to Uilleann pipes and concertinas: people who can afford it are buying up, for huge amounts of money, instruments they can hardly play . I know of one man who by all reports can play feck all on the pipes but who has spent $17 000 on two Wooff sets in the past two years or so. I also know of many people hoarding heaps of good concertinas (wow guys I just bought my fourth Jeffries, any tutors you can recommend?). Now I have a problem with that as we are talking about instruments that are not easy to obtain, waiting lists for a decent instrument have gone into the ridiculous as have the prices of them. I know of one famous fiddle player who ordered a set of Wooff pipes at the birth of his son. The young man will get it for his 12 th birthday. Prices are soaring beyond the budgets of the parents of the many many talented young kids going into the music. I know a case of a family who had to decide on whether to change the car or buy a new concertina for the daughter. They bought the £4500 Jeffries. In the case of these instruments the gizmo driven collecting rage is depriving good, deserving talented young people of proper instruments.

On the other hand, in a private mail, Loren quite strongly voiced I should shut up on the subject as ‘obtaining these things can be very rewarding in itself’. Maybe so, but by the end of the day I think a musical instrument is worth feck all if it doesn’t get to play nice music.

OK open the floodgates…

[as usual I had to edit a zillion typos]


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-02-27 07:40 ]</font>

[Tony]

No complaints here Peter... well said.
Now, can you convince the guy with two Wooff sets to cut loose of one??

[Graphics Guy]

Yep...You pretty much said it all Peter.
And yeah...I have a tendency to go oooooo and ahhhhhh when I see or hear a good whistle
Case in point ..I heard a Low D on Dave Migoya's site, saw the whistle, Did the "WOW Hunny Bunny,Check out this cool looking whistle" thing...Then ordered my Dixon Low G
Which will probably be my last whistle. Oh yeah..The Low G is the sound I've been looking for

Dan

_________________
When the Revolution comes,These issues will be addressed

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Graphics Guy on 2002-02-27 07:33 ]</font>

[chas]

I'm glad this thread bifurcated. I will be the first to admit that any further whistle acquisitions I make will be for collecting. But as long as I'm not kidding myself, I don't think anyone can fault me for it. My wife collects depression glass and flow-blue china. Lots of people collect coins, etc.

OTOH, I first bought Water Weasels because I had a difficult time playing Clarkes and Gens. I first bought Burkes looking for a more traditional sound than the WW's. I bought a Thin Weasel just because I wanted to own one. And let me be the first to come out of the closet and say that I did consider the Copeland.

On the other other hand, I play every one of my high-end whistles regularly, whereas the only inexpensive whistles I play much are a Clare and, to a lesser extent, a Gen Bb. The TW is currently right up there with the Burke WBB as a favorite now, when I can keep it from clogging.

And I don't do sessions, so the only person drooling over my whistles is me, and to some extent my wife and baby.

Charlie

[Graphics Guy]

Yeah Chas...But the difference is that you play your whistles, I think Peter was talking about the Elitists, Those who just have to have the latest and greatest,and have little or no ability to play them,they just have it to show off. Now, I doubt that I'll ever play in a session, and I doubt I'll ever really need a custom made jewelled solid (insert favorite precious metal here)whistle. But yeah, I have to say its really fun to just think about owning one. Kinda like wanting a Ferrari F-50.

Dan

[ChristianRo]

Mostly agreed.
In my opinion there are two reasons for collecting high end whistles or other fancy instruments:

1) They are as much collectors' items and conversation pieces as anything else you can think of. I know people who spend loads of money on pipes (for smoking) or teddybears. Now where's the point in that? It is a kind of sporty obsession. Of course, good instruments should be played as much and as well as possible. But if well-made instruments were only sold to players who can do their instruments justice, an instrument maker's living would be even harder than it is now. If there weren't the demand from mediocre players for high-end instruments, hardly any maker could keep up business and evolution of the instruments would come to an end, the earth would stop moving round the sun blah, blah...
(Christian's Axiom No. 1)

2) The "value" of the music you cherish is incorporated in its exponents: the players and the instruments. A player wants to make this "value" or "magic" hisown. So if he himself cannot (for whatever reason) add to the value himself by constantly improving his playing, the instrument has to do the job in order to achieve some sort of satisfaction. (Christian's Axiom No. 2).

Anyone of us has to find out for him- or herself where the balance for personal satisfaction lies. I am a proud owner, but I want to be recognised as a player. And this I can only achieve by practising and playing my a.. off. No shortcuts.
Christian

edit: I just went through the "silver thingie" thread. Yes, this horse has long been beaten to death. But still, this board gives me inspiration and keeps me entertained. So what?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChristianRo on 2002-02-27 09:47 ]</font>

[Tyghress]

. I know of one famous fiddle player who ordered a set of Wooff pipes at the birth of his son. The young man will get it for his 12 th birthday.

He's buying an expensive set of pipes for a baby who may never want or be able to play? Sounds like a collector to me!

Collector or player? Yep, that's me.

I could have bought a Yugo, but I much prefer my Honda. Those guys driving Mercedes, geez, talk about conspicuous consumption! They should be leaving those cars for people who can really use them.

And those people who buy and store expensive wine. Gee. . .that wine should be for those who APPRECIATE IT! How DARE they keep them to themselves!

[aderyn_du]

On 2002-02-27 09:42, tyghress wrote:

And those people who buy and store expensive wine. Gee. . .that wine should be for those who APPRECIATE IT! How DARE they keep them to themselves!

Wine sitting on a shelf, undrunk.... I shudder to think!!

Slainte,
Andrea ~*~
who drinks it as she gets it... the whole lovely bottle! ::hic::

[Bloomfield]

Damn! I have work to do. But this is just too interesting. Let me just say two quick things.

First, volume is an imporant asset of high-end whistles. In the Wednesday night session they have two large speakers now, often 6 fiddles, 3 guitars, 3 concertinas, two arccordions, 3 whistles and half a dozen bodhrans (I am not kidding). Forget about being heard by others, if I don't break out the Overton or Susato (the Ultimate Session Honker), I can't hear myself. In other, quiter sessions, I will play a Sindt or a Sweetone or (Mk I) Feadog. I do like different tones at different times, but volume is a big consideration.

Second. I believe Peter when he says "at home" they only play Gens, although I am sure that applies to sessions and not the studio. But frankly, I think there is a bit of affectation there. I don't see much difference whether people are being looked at askance if they come to a session with "less than a Burke" or whether they are taken for a flashy poppinjay when they come with "more than a Generation." Surely there is time to give them a listen first?

(Be gentle now, Peter! )

[Cees]

I love Irish music. I love the sound of the whistle. And I'm trying my hardest to learn both, though I'm sure it will be years and years of practice before I get halfway decent at either.

That said, I also love to look at, and talk about, other whistles. That includes the inexpensive ones as well as the expensive ones. I don't own any high-end ones, but I'd like to get a Burke someday--just to have one nicer one than the 5 cheap ones I have, three of which don't sound very good at all. Though I will probably never be able to afford more than one high-end one, I still have a lot of fun dreaming about owning others and talking about them and listening to the sounds they make. For me it's a fun diversion from the day-to-day challenges of being a stay-at-home mother.

So though I will probably never have a big collection, and really, I don't need one, I still really enjoy reading and talking about lots of other whistles--it's fun to have dreams. Everyone needs dreams. There are lots of things in my life I've dreamed about but will probably never happen, but the dreaming sure does make life happier and more fun.

So, like Peter said, this board is big enough for both sides.

Cees

[Arcaic Lemons]

Frankly, I am really amazed that this is even an issue.

Money is money. Why not spend it on what you cherish? To me, spending gobs of money on whistles seems a waste, personally. However, I wouldn't bat an eye on purchasing to my collection of cookie jars. I wouldn't think twice of buying Daniel his complete bells and whistle telescope with lap top if I HAD the funds to spend it on. It's whatever brings the most enjoyment in life. At this point in my life, I cherish my children. My money goes mainly to them. Some day they'll become self sufficient and my money will go else where.

[DrRichard]

Let me try and give a carefully considered reply here. BTW, yes, I'm new, no I don't know the history, and you know, I haven't even been playing whistle that long, but I do own a couple of "high end" whistles...

I'm not sure that this is really completely analogous to the other thread; it seems to me that there are two issues: collectors v. players, and good players v. bad players with expensive whistles. Or is the consensus that if you own a Copeland and play badly you're a collector? I guess I need to understand that position before I reply.

Richard

[Loren]

You Peter,

Are a liar, and a troll. Don't misquote me.

I most certainly did NOT tell you to shut up about anything. Perhaps you can reproduce the e-mail in question? Post it here if you still have it, I'd have no problem with that.

What I did say was A) Collecting is something that many on this board do, and is a valid hobby in and of itself, and B) I told you that you that I had recieved many off board messages from people who were offended by your comments belittling those who spent time and money on instruments, rather than practicing or whatever.

I went on to say that you obviously had much to offer the message board by way of your greater knowledge, experience, and skill at playing Irish Music, so I suggested, in a very civilized manner, that you consider the fact that your comments were alienating just the people you'd like to reach.

Now, anyone who's been here for a length of time longer than a few months knows me well enough that to know if I wanted to tell you to shut up, I'd have done it publicly. By the way for those who might be wondering, Peter and I exchanged e-mail many moths ago, this was not a recent communication.

You see Dale? This is exactly why I never liked trying to resolve issues off board.....

Peter, you owe me an apology.

Loren

[Bloomfield]

On 2002-02-27 10:02, Arcaic Lemons wrote:
Frankly, I am really amazed that this is even an issue.

Of course it's an issue and I suspect it's the same issue with hobby astronomers than it is with whistlers. I am sure there are hobby-astronomers who spend tons of money on a huge telescope with scandilapsed refractometer theodilapitatopers and 133/2 IR-7 vaulted hemi-prazzlers in Molybden tension-grade subcasings and terrawaggled Optoclysmic wide-bore eyepieces and computeres but who can't tell Betageuze from a Jupiter moon. Then there are some whose equipment is less expensive and perhaps a bit old, who have a different sort of passion and knowledge and who actually read the Proceeds of the Astronomical Society. And I wouldn't be suprised if there were a prejudice among hobby astronomers establishing a reverse linear correlation between the price of ones equipment and ones grasp of astronomy.

Just as silly as comprable prejudices among whistlers, I am sure. But these prejudices wouldn't exist, I think, if the collector-player division were so easy. I rather suspect that there is a desire in collectors to be perceived as players. That would explain attitudes like defensiveness about one's expensive whistle or pride in one's cheapo: "Look! I play a Generation (therefore I understand the music)."

[Cayden]

On 2002-02-27 09:42, tyghress wrote:

He's buying an expensive set of pipes for a baby who may never want or be able to play? Sounds like a collector to me!

No my point is: that's how long the waitinglist is, they can always opt out if the child is not inclined to play.