keyed Olwell's and long waits

beowulf573 · Post by **beowulf573** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:35 am

So I'm thinking about ordering a keyed Olwell. Since the wait is around 6-7 years, I should be a pretty decent player by then.

Has anyone waited this long for flute? What's the most frustrating thing about it?

Eddie

spittle · Post by **spittle** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:17 am

beowulf573 wrote: What's the most frustrating thing about it?

Probably the waiting aspect

Regards,
- Ryan

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:34 am

I signed up for one a few months ago. Meanwhile, I'm just going to put it out of my mind as much as possible, save my pennies, and try to play my Hamilton better. And who knows, maybe I'll get to experiment with one of those Murrays somewhere along the way. There'll be distractions, I'm counting on it.

..... Scrabble, anyone?

P.S. I can envision a whole new permanent thread .... 'Dr. Olwell's Waiting Room."

beowulf573 · Post by **beowulf573** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:38 am

Cathy Wilde wrote:

P.S. I can envision a whole new permanent thread .... 'Dr. Olwell's Waiting Room."

Ha! I'll put up a counter on my website, 188697600 seconds until my flute is ready...

Ok, now I get to think about this for a few weeks. I saw John Skelton's Cocus Olwell a few weeks ago, I may have to do some reading about wood sensitivity. I don't believe I'm allergic to it, but would hate to wait so long for a flute made out of it just to have a reaction to it.

Eddie

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:40 am

Eddie, don't order a cocus flute without trying one first -- a lot of people are allergic and the reaction can be very strong, enough to send you to the hospital.

The best way to test your reaction is on a recently oiled flute, which seems to bring out whatever chemicals in the cocus that cause the reaction. I know a couple of people who bought cocus flutes and had no trouble with it until they oiled the flute.

It's the headjoint that's the problem; I don't know of anyone who has developed blisters on their hands from playing a cocus flute. If you feel a tingling sensation on your lips when you play a cocus flute, stop immediately and cross that wood off your list!

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:07 pm

true enough, Brad....
but Patrick will do a silver lip plate insert....he just did his first not but a few weeks ago.
I'd likely do a partial plate (if I had to....which I don't...but worth a thought) that doesn't cover the blow edge. The metal edge makes a different sound to me and it's less intimate playing.

beowulf573 · Post by **beowulf573** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:23 pm

Does anyone know how long it can take for a reaction to set in? Is it immediate or can it take a period of weeks?

There's a fellow who has a decent sized flute collection locally, I know him well enough to ask if he has a cocuswood flute he could bring to session for me to try, but not well enough to borrow.

I'd rather avoid the lip plate if I can. Of course, it's all just a thought-experiement at this point.

Eddie

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:03 pm

Different people have different levels of reaction to cocus. Sometimes it develops immediately, sometimes it takes a while to show up. Sometimes, if the reaction is mild enough, you can just play your way through it. I've got a friend who got a cocus flute from Patrick Olwell, had some reaction, but didn't want to give up the great flute and just toughed it out. She's now playing fine over a year into it.

So, Eddie, I guess my point for you would be this. Try out a cocus flute if you can for as long as you can swing it. If you're gonna have an immediate strong reaction to the wood, you'll have it and then you'll know not to order a cocus flute from Patrick. Otherwise, order away. You may find out that Patrick can't promise you a cocus flute anyway due to limited supply of that timber. And I tell you what - if six or seven years from now you have a keyed cocus Olwell flute in hand and find out that you're allergic to it, I'll trade you my keyed blackwood Olwell for it straight up. I'm sure I'm not the only one willing to make such an offer. So don't sweat it...

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:26 pm

beowulf573 wrote:Does anyone know how long it can take for a reaction to set in? Is it immediate or can it take a period of weeks?

In my case it took a couple of years or so. Now the reaction is pretty immediate: the area below my lower lip will start burning and turn red. If I play more than a couple of tunes (as I did when testing out Noy headjoints), the reaction becomes something like poison ivy, and takes a while to subside. No choice for me; I have to have lip plates on flutes made of exotic hardwoods, although mopane might be an exception. In my case, the sensitization seems to be permanent. I've been playing a polymer M&E lately, and when I tried the unplated Noy headjoints, it was as if I never had a respite from blackwood contact.

I'm glad to hear that P. Olwell is finally installing lip plates; I've been bugging him about it, as he's putting a new headjoint and barrel on my Williams blackwood flute. I'll be giving him a call and bugging him further.

I don't mean to sound dire and alarmist; it's just how it is for me. Anyway, I like the look of lip plates. Kinda spiffy, I think.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:35 pm

I've heard a few horror stories from people who are severely allergic to cocus, including one friend whose entire face puffed up. She even had difficulty breathing. You gotta be careful with that stuff. I can tell I'm allergic because I get a tingling sensation on my lips when I try a cocus headjoint, so I've never played one for more than a couple of minutes. I've also heard stories of people who became sensitive to blackwood after having an allergic reaction to cocus, so it's a chance I don't want to take.

I want to stress again that if you play a cocus headjoint dry (i.e. one that hasn't been oiled in a while), you may have no reaction at all. But if you ever oil it, you could be in for a nasty surprise if you are allergic. I know a guy who played an antique cocus flute for several months and then had a strong reaction after oiling the headjoint.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:06 pm

I wish we were a big enough group that some allergist would get interested in cocus. What Brad says is true, there are reportedly people who get really allergic to cocus, then seem to exhibit an allergy to blackwood. Other comments lead to my occasional thoughts that maybe it's the oil that's brining out the reaction, since even more people are allergic to nuts than to timber. But I'm sure people would say that they use almond (for example) oil on everything, and it's fine on blackwood but bad on cocus. Nor have I heard of anyone ever having anything remotely allergic from boxwood . . .

Speaking of which, let's not forget boxwood, Mother Nature's Hypoallergenic Flute Timber.

Oh my GOSH! NEWS FLASH!

OK, so I decided to do my own little wee investigation into our beloved Brya ebenus, as botanists know cocus. Hang on to your hats, folks. The genus Brya is, as folks have mentioned before . . . a legume. So's rosewood. Bold indicates a level which becomes interesting.

Here's the taxonomy of cocus:
KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Fabales
FAMILY Fabaceae -- Pea family
GENUS Brya
SPECIES ebenus

Now HERE's the taxonomy of everyday PEANUTS!
KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Fabales
FAMILY Fabaceae -- Pea family
GENUS Arachis
SPECIES hypogaea

And, oh gosh, AFRICAN BLACKWOOD!
KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Fabales
FAMILY Fabaceae -- Pea family
GENUS Dalbergia
SPECIES melanoxylon

Wow. Who knew how closely related are blackwood, rosewoods (like cocobolo, which is Dalbergia retusa), cocus, and PEANUTS of all things. Family relationships are quite close, genetically speaking; it's no wonder people are allergic to cocus, cocobolo, blackwood . . . and peanuts. Hmm. . . For clarity, the classifications above are bold only where the differences begin.

For the sake of discussion, here's the taxonomy of European boxwood, Buxus sempervirens.

KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Euphorbiales
FAMILY Buxaceae -- Boxwood family
GENUS Buxus
SPECIES sempervirens

The order Euphorbiales contains only three families, one of which is Buxaceae, the boxwoods, and another of which is Simmondsiaceae, the jojoba family. Skin lotion. So, mebbe boxwood flutes are actually good for the complexion.

Seriously, though, boxwoods are pretty far from rosewoods/peanuts.

It's interesting, but perusing the Fabaceae family and you come up with all kinds of allergenic stuff. Clover, alfalfa, other weeds.

Again, for the sake of interest, and I hope I'm not the only one interested . . . here's ebony, Diospyros ebenum, favorite timber of many uilleann pipemakers.

KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Dilleniidae
ORDER Ebenales
FAMILY Ebenaceae -- Ebony family
GENUS Diospyros
SPECIES ebenum

Ebony takes us even takes the genetic relation one step further away . . . it differs in the subclass level even from boxwood.

Now, I realize that this doesn't do a lot to help you figure out what to do about ordering a flute out of cocus or blackwood. It does, I think, shed some scientific light on why this kind of thing might be occurring . . . these timbers, rosewoods-blackwoods-cocus, are closely related to each other, and as close to peanuts (which are a well-recognized and common allergen). I think it means that people with allergies, particularly peanut allergies, should consider flutes in boxwood or ebony. Or lip-plates. But this is a real phenomenon which has rained on the parades of many flute buyers. Just because you don't have an allergy now, does that mean you won't get one? Hard to say, too; if you've got a lot of environmental allergens, I think chances are better that you COULD develop an allergy to cocus/blackwood/cocobolo. This phylogeny/taxonomic discussion ALSO doesn't discuss how "accessible" the allergens are to the body; it does seem that cocus is many times more allergenic than blackwood, but I can't explain why.

To give you an idea of the proximity of these relationships . . . we're primates, right? We differ from chimpanzees at the genus level. So, cocus::blackwood as chimps::me. Peanuts::blackwood as chimps::me.

Boxwood differs at the order level . . . so, that'd be like, armadillos, which are in the order Pholidota. So, cocus::boxwood as armadillos::me.

And how's this for funky. Ebony differs at the subclass level. That's like, well . . . the platypus, which is in the subclass Prototheria. So, ebony::blackwood as platypus::me. Likewise, ebony::boxwood as platypus::me.

If you're curious about blackwood::cocobolo, they're as close as jackals::dogs.

This has been an incredibly fun message to construct, and I hope it engenders some discussion. I think I'll cross-post it in its own thread with some kind of "Cocus Allergies and You" title.

Anyway, I hope y'all enjoy it.

Stuart

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:39 pm

Stuart - I appreciate the "Mr. Science" moment! That is interesting, and your hypothesis seems to make sense. However, when you get down to platypus - shouldn't you use Red Lancewood or some other Australian timber?

Eric

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:05 am

Nanohedron wrote: I've been playing a polymer M&E lately, and when I tried the unplated Noy headjoints, it was as if I never had a respite from blackwood contact.

This seems to be a common observation about wood allergies. They can take months or even years to reach the point of triggering. Once triggered though, things don't improve, no matter how long you lay off.

I have heard of flute players with allergies so bad their fingers are affected, but I've never heard of a gutarist who had a similar problem with fretboards. The only explanation I can think of is that you reach triggering point a lot more quickly through lip and face contact than through finger contact alone.

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:17 am

David Migoya wrote:true enough, Brad....
but Patrick will do a silver lip plate insert....he just did his first not but a few weeks ago.

Hehe David you are au courant indeed!

beowulf573 · Post by **beowulf573** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:55 am

Thanks for all of the great replies, I like it when threads take unexpected but useful directions.

So far, at 36 years old, the only allergic reaction I've ever had was to a brand of laundry soap when I was 8-10 years old. Note to self, do a bit of research on late-onset allergies.

Besides the various allergic reactions, is there a noticable tonal difference between cocuswood and blackwood? Or is the difference so subtle as to be in the realm of opinion?

thanks,
Eddie

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keyed Olwell's and long waits

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