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Dalberon
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Post by Dalberon »

skh wrote:
BoneQuint wrote:Yeah, but you'll have to finger D as D#, and G as G# (half-holing, presumably) to keep the intervals correct, essentially transposing it up a step to E Major. Or is the original written in the key of C? Or am I missing something (not unlikely)?
If the tune in question is indeed http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/434 you are absolutely right. I'd recommend playing it in G then instead - three notes higher than written, start with second ovtave E, use Cnat.

I didn't look at the tune and assumed the "C"s mentioned were C naturals, and the tune probably in C major anyway.

Sorry for giving misleading tips,

Sonja
:boggle: Ok folks...musical novice here doing my best to follow what your saying. First off...yes that is the tune in question. Now...if I am following you I would take the first note, which is a b, and play it as an e and this will work without attempting to half-hole notes? The way I had already begun was to play the b as a c, but this has an issue with needing too many sharp notes?


Thanks
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StevieJ
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Post by StevieJ »

Dalberon wrote:
skh wrote:
BoneQuint wrote:Yeah, but you'll have to finger D as D#, and G as G# (half-holing, presumably) to keep the intervals correct, essentially transposing it up a step to E Major. Or is the original written in the key of C? Or am I missing something (not unlikely)?
If the tune in question is indeed http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/434 you are absolutely right. I'd recommend playing it in G then instead - three notes higher than written, start with second ovtave E, use Cnat.

I didn't look at the tune and assumed the "C"s mentioned were C naturals, and the tune probably in C major anyway.

Sorry for giving misleading tips,

Sonja
:boggle: Ok folks...musical novice here doing my best to follow what your saying. First off...yes that is the tune in question. Now...if I am following you I would take the first note, which is a b, and play it as an e and this will work without attempting to half-hole notes? The way I had already begun was to play the b as a c, but this has an issue with needing too many sharp notes?


Thanks
Sonja's point about keys and pitch being unimportant holds some of the time, esp. when you're playing by ear. If you're going to attempt to transpose things from sheet music, a little knowledge of keys will help.

I recommend the ear route myself, esp. if you're a beginner. But: yes, if you play the B as a C you are in effect transposing the tune up a semitone from D major to Eb major, which you really don't want to know about at this stage, or possibly any stage. Unless you mean C#, which means you are transposing up a whole tone into E major, which as was pointed out about is not an easy key for the whistle either.

Sonja's suggestion is to transpose the tune into G major, which means that the only possibly unfamiliar note you will have to handle is C natural, obtained either by half-holing or "cross-fingering".

However, I note from the music Sonja pointed to that the only low Cs in the tune are in fact C#s, and they are all passing notes (none of them very important to the melody). You can try a trick for these notes - with all your fingers down as for a low D' curl your little finger under the end of the whistle. With a bit of practice you can get a fudgy kind of low C#.

Steve
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skh
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Post by skh »

Dalberon wrote: :boggle: Ok folks...musical novice here doing my best to follow what your saying. First off...yes that is the tune in question. Now...if I am following you I would take the first note, which is a b, and play it as an e and this will work without attempting to half-hole notes? The way I had already begun was to play the b as a c, but this has an issue with needing too many sharp notes?
We are confusing you, aren't we? :-) StevieJ: thanks for filling in what I again left out.

Dalberon: The general rule is that you want to play a tune in a certain key on a whistle in that (major) key. So on a D whistle you would want to play D major, E dorian, and B minor - all three scales using exactly the same notes, only using different notes as "focus" or start and end points for the scale.

However. The range of a whistle is very limited, and you often end up with tunes where you would need additional notes at the top or bottom end of the whistle to make it comfortable. The B minor I mentioned above is such a case - yes, the notes are there, but you don't have a bottom B, so you'd have to play tunes in B minor awfully high (I'm not sure it is accidental that I don't know any tunes in B minor).

Enter the second key a whistle can play with little hassle: the one a fourth above the key the whistle is in, the major scale starting with "upper three fingers down", or G on a D whistle. To play in this key, you need to change one note, C# becomes C, or 000 000 becomes 0xx 000 (or any other fingering, but this is the most common one). So, on a D whistle, you have the following scales at your disposal as well: G major, A dorian and E minor (agein, A dorian isn't too common, but it's theoretically there).

Still with me? When you have a tune that goes below the bell note of your whistle (fiddle tunes seem to like going below D, show-offs...), you have several options:

First, check the key. The tune might not be in D major or one of the relative scales at all, but in C or Bb or something else, as I assumed yours was (sorry for not checking). In that case, my advice with ignoring keys and pitch holds, you just play the tune in D and don't worry. You'll have to worry when you want to play with others who don't want to play everything in D, but you can then buy more whistles and be happy that you have a reason to do so.

Now, if the tune is indeed in D, but goes below low D, you need another strategy. To stay in D, you could use an A whistle: D is the "secondary" key on an A whistle, starting with xxx ooo, easy enough to play, and with 3 extra notes below low D you can use (which should be enough even for those fiddle tunes). If you don't have an A whistle, you can (and that was my second suggestion) just take your D whistle and pretend it is an A. You will automagically transpose the tune from D to G then - but in many cases this doesn't matter, e.g. when you're playing alone.

Another strategy is playing the notes below low D an octave higher, substituting them with others, leaving them out, or showing that your little finger is longer than mine and do as StevieJ suggested.

To get the key-thing down by ear, I'd suggest taking whistles in as many keys as possible and playing "Twinkle twinkle little star" once starting with xxx xxx, once with xxx ooo by ear, remembering what these notes are called on the actual whistles (D and G on D, A and D on A, Bb and C on Bb, C and G on C, ...). These are the major scales you can play on these whistles. finding the other scales (minor, dorian, mixolydian) from there is easy, but this is another story and shall be told another time ;-)

cheers,

Sonja
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Dalberon
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Post by Dalberon »

StevieJ wrote:However, I note from the music Sonja pointed to that the only low Cs in the tune are in fact C#s, and they are all passing notes (none of them very important to the melody). You can try a trick for these notes - with all your fingers down as for a low D' curl your little finger under the end of the whistle. With a bit of practice you can get a fudgy kind of low C#.

Steve
You folk have officially impressed the hell out of me with how little I currently know about music. The scary part is that I am getting the general idea. I definitely need to study key's more and understand the limits of the whistle compared to other instruments.

In the meantime Steve's comment above interests me as I have the hands of a gorrilla. Are you saying that I would partially cover the opening at the end of the whistle and I could actually get one note lower than the d (xxx xxx) ??? I've been using that finger for stability, especially on the c# (ooo ooo), but I'm good with my hands and think I could work such a transition.
-Tom
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Post by OutOfBreath »

Dalberon wrote:In the meantime Steve's comment above interests me as I have the hands of a gorrilla.
People collect the strangest things... :lol:
John
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Dalberon
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Post by Dalberon »

OutOfBreath wrote:
Dalberon wrote:In the meantime Steve's comment above interests me as I have the hands of a gorrilla.
People collect the strangest things... :lol:
You should see the parts I have from a horse. :o
-Tom
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Post by OutOfBreath »

Dalberon wrote:You should see the parts I have from a horse. :o
Yer gonna fit in jes' fine around here :)
John
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skh
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Post by skh »

Dalberon wrote:In the meantime Steve's comment above interests me as I have the hands of a gorrilla. Are you saying that I would partially cover the opening at the end of the whistle and I could actually get one note lower than the d (xxx xxx) ???
Yes. One half note, to be precise, C# on a D whistle.

Sonja
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StevieJ
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Post by StevieJ »

While we're trying to confuse Dalb to death, let's go the whole hog.
skh wrote:... So on a D whistle you would want to play D major, E dorian, and B minor ....

...on a D whistle, you have the following scales at your disposal as well: G major, A dorian and E minor (again, A dorian isn't too common, but it's theoretically there).
Actually, in Irish traditional music A Dorian is common - very common. Nearly all the so-called "A-minor" reels and jigs etc. are really in A dorian - i.e. with an F#.

Also missing from your first group, and also very common, is A Mixolydian (the "highland bagpipe" scale). Many of the so-called "A-major" jigs and reels etc. are in fact A-mix - i.e. with a G-nat.
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Post by Bloomfield »

StevieJ wrote:Actually, in Irish traditional music A Dorian is common - very common. Nearly all the so-called "A-minor" reels and jigs etc. are really in A dorian - i.e. with an F#.

Also missing from your first group, and also very common, is A Mixolydian (the "highland bagpipe" scale). Many of the so-called "A-major" jigs and reels etc. are in fact A-mix - i.e. with a G-nat.
Mmmmh. Wouldn't both A-dorian and A-mixolydian have G-nats and F#s? Wouldn't the difference between A-dorian and A-mix be the C? C-natural for A-dorian and C# A-mixolydian? (Complicated by the fact that there are several tunes "in A" without any C at all, sharp or natural, like the Knotted Chord.)
/Bloomfield
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Post by skh »

StevieJ wrote:Actually, in Irish traditional music A Dorian is common - very common. Nearly all the so-called "A-minor" reels and jigs etc. are really in A dorian - i.e. with an F#.

Also missing from your first group, and also very common, is A Mixolydian (the "highland bagpipe" scale). Many of the so-called "A-major" jigs and reels etc. are in fact A-mix - i.e. with a G-nat.
I stand corrected.

Sonja
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Post by StevieJ »

Bloomfield wrote:
StevieJ wrote:Actually, in Irish traditional music A Dorian is common - very common. Nearly all the so-called "A-minor" reels and jigs etc. are really in A dorian - i.e. with an F#.

Also missing from your first group, and also very common, is A Mixolydian (the "highland bagpipe" scale). Many of the so-called "A-major" jigs and reels etc. are in fact A-mix - i.e. with a G-nat.
Mmmmh. Wouldn't both A-dorian and A-mixolydian have G-nats and F#s? Wouldn't the difference between A-dorian and A-mix be the C? C-natural for A-dorian and C# A-mixolydian? (Complicated by the fact that there are several tunes "in A" without any C at all, sharp or natural, like the Knotted Chord.)
You are right, as usual.

But you're missing the point, as... we all sometimes do.

The G nat is what distinguishes A mix from A major. and the F# is what distinguishes A dorian from A minor.

I think Dalberon has probably given up on us by now. Let's go down the pub.
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Post by susnfx »

Dalberon wrote:You folk have officially impressed the hell out of me with how little I currently know about music.
They're just showing off, Dalberon. ;) You don't have to know this stuff to play the music. I'm off to the pub with them!

Susan
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Post by Bloomfield »

StevieJ wrote:You are right, as usual.

But you're missing the point, as... we all sometimes do.
As long as I am right, I don't mind missing the point. ;)


Eh, Susan, you're buying, right? Let's go.
/Bloomfield
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Post by susnfx »

Bloomfield wrote:Eh, Susan, you're buying, right? Let's go.
Don't I always?!?!?

Susan
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