Earschplittinloudenboomerpipes

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:20 am

Brian Lee wrote:OK - So I'm SURE I must b missing something here:

**I still don't see why concert pitch pipes HAVE to be wide bore!**

Can you tell I'm having a lazy day at work?

There are a couple of things that I'll say which may have been said before on this thread, but since Brian brings up the point . . . I'll perhaps reiterate.

Concert pitch and flat pitch, as monikers, have tended to refer to "bore size" even moreso than pitch. Concert pitch is of course D, but flat pitch usually means narrow-bore.

And, as mentioned, there are many makers who make and have made narrow-bore D chanters, or, if you will . . . flat-pitch pipes in D. I myself have a Rogge half-set in D with a narrow-bore chanter, expertly reeded by our Seth Gallagher. It is definitely quieter than a "standard" concert-pitch set, but the thing I like better is the responsiveness. It zips around with nary a clunk. Part of that is probably the design of the chanter, part of that is the reed.

Actually, when I was ordering my first set, I had decided that I wanted a narrow-bore chanter in D. I talked to Seth, actually, who told me that he didn't have a good narrow D design and to check with other people. I landed with Rogge, and really liked the pipes.

I don't mean to say this as though it were the Gospel, but, at least in my hands, the various bore designs seem to affect responsiveness and overall "feel" of the chanter rather than the loudness, per se. Although I'm sure if you put a Gallagher D chanter with a good, stiff reed against mine with a similar reed, the bigger-bore chanter would sound louder. But there's a lot to be said for the reed design in loudness.

This observation fits with my experience with the GHB also, whose chanter can be comfortable indoors or earschplittin' depending on the reed.

Just opinions here folks, opinions only.

Stuart

lemonsquash · Post by **lemonsquash** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:31 pm

The reality of the motive behind wide bore sets, D or otherwise, was brought home to me last year in Chicago, as I vainly tried to hear a B set made by Bruce Childress whilst sitting in Grant Park. Despite the fact that the motorways into the park were closed, the ambient sound of thousands of humans talking, eating, farting, weeping, etc., was easily enough to overwhelm that set. Some apologists for the flat pipes have suggested that rather than play "loud" D sets, one ought to take advantage of the superior amplification possibilities now available, posing what is, to me, a funny little aesthetic conundrum; Playing a set made in the style and pitch of the grand old makers--and toting around a small PA system, just like Garrett Barry.
The world has been getting louder for a long time, and is just getting louder faster and faster these days. I try to imagine what the noise level in Philadelphia must have been when the Taylors were working there and assume it must have been comparable to a much smaller city in America today. Because the pipes hadn't really become an ensemble instrument during the time that Rowsome was developing his famous/notorious design (or any other concert pitch makers were doing it in their way), it's my feeling that they were looking for better volume not to compete with other musicians, but to be heard above the generally increasing din of humanity.
I haven't heard it suggested that the wide bore D pipes may be an instrument in evolution. Most pipers/pipemakers who bother to comment on it seem to feel that they are a basmati child of sound flat chanter/reed design principles and the thirst for volume, resulting in a hopelessly misbehaved mutant. I suggest that the concert D chanter hasn't really moved much in terms of it's design since Rowsome, mainly because interest in the pipes was so low for so long. There seem to be quite a few makers of D pipes working now who do realize the limitations of that model and are working on improving it. So, whether the sound of that pitch and that volume is your particular cup of meat or not, there may yet be a D set that has good volume and good tone and can be reeded without going bananas.

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:00 am

Geoff Woofe wrote of the paradox of the old flat chanters using reeds which had a higher crow than the newer concert pitch chanters, which needed a flatter reed to play in modern concert pitch. Has anyone worked at resolving this dilemma-making a wide bore concert pitch chanter that uses a smaller reed? Geoff's own narrow bore Ds are 14 9/16" long, rather longer than most wide bore stuff.
Baines used the term "parlour pipes" for Irish and Northumbrian pipes in general; Seamus Ennis called his style the mixed or parlour style. In a parlour those Childress pipes would sound fine, or actually a bit loudish; Bruce's stuff isin't narrow bore at all, I'm told.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:28 am

Kevin L. Rietmann wrote: ....Bruce's stuff isin't narrow bore at all, I'm told.

Huh??
Kevin, which stuff are you talking about?
Bruce often reads this board. Ask him a specific question and you will probably get a response.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:49 am

....Geoff's own narrow bore Ds are 14 9/16" long, rather longer than most wide bore stuff....

Kevin, that length sounds about right to my rough measurements, but aren't wide bore D's based on 14 1/2" sticks? I put a few chanters next to each other for comparison.
Top to bottom:
Gallagher C
Wooff narrow bore D
Simack D
Childress D

There is very little difference in 'stick length' on these D chanters and even less reed tip to bell measurments.

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:12 am

Tony wrote:
Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:
Bruce often reads this board. Ask him a specific question and you will probably get a response.

OK.
HEYYYYYYY BRRRRRUUUUCCCCCE!
I was told his flat pipes were loudish-3/16" throats, bell of 1/2" or so, maybe more, big fingerholes. You know, loud. Sort of. Not like Woofe or Brad Angus-narrow bore, throat 4.1mm and bell 11.1 maximum, fingerholes no larger than the throat usually. And you notice the paradox of the older type of pipes using the newer numeration system?
These are just rumours, Bruce can let us know what's under the hood. Looks like he does make a longish D, too. Looks like you're blessed with luck, Tony; or do you shop around for these? Aren't a lot of makers still doing 14 1/4" or 14"? What's a Gallagher D at for length, anyway?

bcpipes · Post by **bcpipes** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:54 pm

Hey Kevin and all,

OK, OK, OK, OK! Grab your seats, cuz I'm going to do something few pipemakers do (besides post to a list at all). I am going to post top secret information, that may risk the lives of operatives in the field. Keep an eye on the list and I will post the bore dimensions of my favorite D pitch chanter, and my favorite B pitch chanter.

Both chanters were designed for "hobby shop" brass tube staples, unaltered except for the flattened end. The measurements were taken with metal rods in 1/64" diameter increments. They were rounded and polished on the ends to avoid bore marring. You will see the measurements listed as a table with the bore diameter verses guage depth. I know some of you are freaked out about metal probes, but it was my personal chanters, and it really didn't hurt a thing.

I really have no problem with doing this, though. After all, this is something anyone can do who has access to one of my chanters. But, for the benefit of the list, I will post them.

So, it may take me a bit to gather and organize the information. So, if you have something important to do, go ahead and do it and come back later to check.

Cheers,
BC

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:24 pm

The use of a round probe will give you only the narrowest reading at a particular depth. If the bore is not at all ovaloid, that will be close enough. A measurement of the widest reading with an oval bore is necessary to calculate the diameter of the reamer at that point. A split probe is necessary to obtain the wider reading.

Ted

bcpipes · Post by **bcpipes** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:29 pm

Hello Kevin and all,

B-Pitch Chanter from the bell to the throat and reed seat in inches. Note that the throat diameter is a bit les than 11/64":

Depth Diameter
0 0.4275
0.35 0.422
1.5 0.407
2.95 0.391
4.07 0.375
5.16 0.359
6.4 0.349
7.33 0.328
8.32 0.313
9.25 0.295
10.03 0.279
10.76 0.265
11.5 0.249
12.39 0.234
13.23 0.219
14.19 0.205
15.35 0.188
16.59 0.171
This point would be the throat.
16.975 0.171
17.155 0.188
17.305 0.205
17.445 0.219
17.555 0.234
17.825 0.2635

Tone hole size and placement from bell (D-Pitch nomenclature):

Ghost D 3/16" 2.95"
E 9/64" 4.31"
F# 15/64" 5.55"
G 3/16" 6.88"
A 13/64" 8.98"
B 3/16" 10.56"
C# 11/64" 11.87"
D 3/16" 12.77"

You can take the measurement of the bore and graph them out to see the basic shape of the bore. Also, because the measuring rods either will not pass through the throat, or will pass throught it loosley, you can determine the exact throat diameter by interpolation on a graph. Where the reed seat line, and the bore line meet is the throat diameter.

Next: D pitch. Lemme get it together here. I'll be right back.....

Cheers,
BC

bcpipes · Post by **bcpipes** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:31 pm

Hello Ted,

Neither chanter is Ovoid. I've checked it out No problem.

BC

bcpipes · Post by **bcpipes** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:49 pm

Hello Kevin and all,

Here be for the D chanter. Same rules apply:

Depth Diameter
0 0.4895
0.18 0.483
0.92 0.47
1.79 0.452
2.58 0.437
3.36 0.422
4.28 0.407
5.09 0.391
5.82 0.375
6.52 0.359
7.16 0.349
7.93 0.328
8.58 0.313
9.23 0.295
9.94 0.279
10.62 0.265
11.27 0.249
12.08 0.234
12.73 0.219
Here be the throat
13.51 0.219
13.65 0.234
13.78 0.249
13.9 0.265
14.05 0.279
14.17 0.295
14.33 0.313
14.45 0.328

And here is the tone hole size and spacing:

Ghost D: 7/32" 2.367"
E 3/16" 3.588"
F# 5/16" 4.886"
G 13/64" 6.106"
A 17/64" 7.52"
B 1/4" 8.823"
C# 7/32" 9.976"
D 1/4" 10.768"

For both D and B pitch chanters, the outside is a straight taper from the Thumb D hole at .65" to the ghost D hole at .85". There may be variations on the outside diameter, though.

A D-pitch staple is 2 1/8" long, in 3/16" diameter, .014" wall brass tube. The B-Pitch staple is 2 3/16" long, 5/32" Outside diameter, .014" wall brass tube. The head of the D pitch reed is .472" and the B pitch reed is .425".

That is all I can say now. Someone in a trenchcoat is watching me. The snake is in the grass! Repeat: The snake is in the gr........
Static
End transmission

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:11 pm

Ted wrote:The use of a round probe will give you only the narrowest reading at a particular depth. If the bore is not at all ovaloid, that will be close enough. A measurement of the widest reading with an oval bore is necessary to calculate the diameter of the reamer at that point. A split probe is necessary to obtain the wider reading.

Ted, whose chanters are oval, and how was that done...by accident or design? What effect would this produce?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:29 pm

Some chanters have a slight oval cross section right after being reamed. This may be due to flex in the timber as the reamer cuts across and then with the grain. When reaming on a lathe, a rrrRRRrrrRRRrrrRRR sound can be heard as this is being done. Over time most chanters go a varying amount oval due to shrinkage. A split ball guage can determine the amount of this with maximum/minimum readings at the same depth. A maximum and a minimum plot can be made. What diameters to make the reamers based on these measurements is up to the pipemaker to determine. If it was me, I would try a compromise in the readings, make the reamers, ream a chanter or so and measure the finished products and compare results with the original. I am sure the more fastidious makers do this. The oval is not designed into the chanter, but like s#@t, it happens.

Ted

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:29 pm

Some chanters have a slight oval cross section right after being reamed. This may be due to flex in the timber as the reamer cuts across and then with the grain. When reaming on a lathe, a rrrRRRrrrRRRrrrRRR sound can be heard as this is being done. Over time most chanters go a varying amount oval due to shrinkage. A split ball guage can determine the amount of this with maximum/minimum readings at the same depth. A maximum and a minimum plot can be made. What diameters to make the reamers based on these measurements is up to the pipemaker to determine. If it was me, I would try a compromise in the readings, make the reamers, ream a chanter or so and measure the finished products and compare results with the original. I am sure the more fastidious makers do this. The oval is not designed into the chanter, but like s#@t, it happens.

Ted

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:44 pm

Ted wrote:Some chanters have a slight oval cross section right after being reamed. This may be due to flex in the timber as the reamer cuts across and then with the grain. When reaming on a lathe, a rrrRRRrrrRRRrrrRRR sound can be heard...
Ted

Heh, why'd ya post this twice, Ted? Are your fingers making a rrrRRRrrrRRRrrrRRR sound?