Scottish vs Irish Trad?

Teri-K · Post by **Teri-K** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 11:59 am

Thanks Peter, I was just about to say the same thing with the addition of:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... =1&start=0

Been there... let's move on

Teri

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:08 pm

On 2002-08-02 13:41, Wizzer wrote:
Celtic forum is a better and more appropriate name: Bloomfield might be forgetting his roots when referring to Irish or Scottish music. We need to appreciate the Celtic music in all its derivatives.

My roots? If only I could forget.

Good thing, though, is that I can choose what to appreciate. Among the things I do appreciate are Irish music, Scottish music, Cape Breton music, music from Brittany, in about that order of interest and knowledge. What I don't need to appreciate is the word "Celtic": I have only seen the word Celtic used meaningfully in two contexts: Sales pitches or self-descriptions of musicians who like watered-down (and to my ears, bland) versions of Irish or Scotish music.

Sigh. Here I go again. But I guess the subject had to come up sooner or later, and I am sorry if I sound cranky. I usually like music that is described as "Celtic" and if I did dislike it, I would hate to exclude it from discussion for that reason alone. It just seems more helpful to talk about Irish music, Scots music, etc.

A purely personal note:
The further I get into this music, the more I notice that I must understand the original before I can get my mind and ears around the derivatives. (It's like trying to understand Spaceballs without having seen Star Wars.) I find myself not only buying albums for listening pleasure, but also as a part of my education in ITM, almost like homework (still a pleasure, though). I need a compass to navigate my musical journey by, and that compass for traditional music is the music as it is traditionally played: in kitchens, at weddings, often by non-professional musicians. I love the show pieces and jazzy arrangements, Mike McGoldrick, Lunasa, Patrick Street, Moving Cloud etc etc. But they all listened to Michel Coleman and Willy Clancy, Kitty Hayes and Margaret Barry, and to their neighbors and uncles at Ceilis and sessions, before they could play what they play. So, if I am buying a record, "Celtic" is fine by me, but if I am trying to learn about the music, it isn't.

(Sorry, wizzer, if the tone isn't as smooth as it ought to be; it's not directed at you or anything. It's a sore spot, somehow. :roll:)

Best,

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:09 pm

On 2002-08-02 13:50, Peter Laban wrote:
I think the opening statement of the forum was pretty clear.
And let's not go into the 'Celtic' issue again. Taht's not what we are here for.

Ooops, now I just did. Maybe that'll do for this forum, though.

chattiekathy · Post by **chattiekathy** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 1:22 pm

On 2002-08-01 01:50, bassnwhistle wrote:
I recently mentioned this book on a recent post on the main whistle site, but it's worth mentioning again. The Celtic Fake Book by Hal Leonard Publishing Corporation ISBN:0634017276 has airs, jigs, reels, hornpipes and all manner of Celtic music lovingly separated (in the index) into Irish, Scottish, Welsh and other origins. That might give you a taste of some of the differences.
For a listing of songs in the book check out
http://www.encoremusic.com/recorder/1702233.htm
Ian

Yes Ian,

This is the kind of stuff I am looking for!

And the answer is so simple!

Thanks!

Kathy

fluter_d · Post by **fluter_d** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:18 pm

Hi all!

I just found the ITM forum, so I'm a bit behind most people here...

This is just to explain why I'm skipping a bit! I've played ITM for about 12 years, with the same people and teacher - who all play in Sliabh Luachra style - for about 10 of those years. In the past 2 years, I've started studying music at university, so my musical horizons - both in terms of classical, and IT music - have been broadened at a rapid pace since then!
The point I wanted to make (yes, I am getting to it

) was that I think that it's impossible to identify one single aspect of the music - any music, in fact - as the MOST important factor in that music, and I don't think that it is possible to differentiate musical styles and types on this basis. I don't play a lot of Scottish music - I'm from the wrong end of Ireland! - but from my (limited) listening experience, and lectures on ITM/Scottish trad in university, here are some of the more obvious differences:
1) In ITM, when you play a tune, variation and variety are encouraged - melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, etc. In Scottish music, however, there is not as much of a culture of variation - in general, musicians will play the melody more or less the same each time around.
2) ITM tunes are usually played twice or three times through - although this is not prescribed. Scottish tunes (as far as I remember!) can be played through any number of times, usually 4 or more. [Please inform me if I'm wrong!]
3) As mentioned previously, the 'Scotch Snap' is a feature of strathspeys. This rhythmic pattern is related to the dotted 4/4 rhythm of a hornpipe (long-short-long-short), but the shorter note occurs on the 1st and 3rd notes in each group of 4, rather than (as in a hornpipe) the 2nd and 4th. However, this is not used throughout a strathspey; rather, it is used as a variation on the dotted hornpipe pattern, and can even 'share' a group of four notes with that pattern (long-short-short-long, for example), which gives a 'choppy' feel to the tune. This style of playing is carried through into other tune types also, which means that a Scottish player will play (for example) a reel in a much more staccato, bouncy style than an Irish player would (I am generalising: of course there are some Irish players who will play like this also

- particularly those who play in Ulster styles).

Ok, I think I'm out of hard facts. I'll finish!
Deirdre
*I apologise if anything's wrong... please don't hurt me! D

[ This Message was edited by: fluter_d on 2002-08-02 19:31 ]

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:09 pm

Getting closer here, but the -real- difference between Irish and Scottish Music is quite simple.

Scottish musicians play the music with metronome-like precision, the notes in lockstep with one another, until the tune has been thoroughly trampled underfoot.

Irish musicians play the music in whatever timing, tempo, ornamentation and variation suits the moment - each musician in the group doing so differently - until the room is filled with cacophany and the tune goes down for the third time and drowns.

Really. Just ask the tunes.

--Chris

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:34 am

I would not at all agree with that last bit, a good Irish session is as tight, steady and together as anything.

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:31 pm

It was only a joke... the trend being for scottish musicians to be very concerned about playing synchronously, and for irish musicians being fond of variation. Neither statement is meant to be taken as actually true... if I actually thought that why would I be on the board and trying to play ITM myself!?

Obviously, if a keyless flute player folds the tune for a few notes or puts a harmonizing roll in while the fiddler plays a straight melody (or some reversal of the same, but I don't know what ornamenting a fiddle might do), this is not going to hurt the tune any, and actually adds a bit of spice, I think... which is what I'd pretty much expect to hear at a good, tight session.

I think, though, that at most sessions there is still some places where there are minor variations in the tune... and maybe even left there on semi-purpose when the variations harmonize (EDE and EGE, perhaps... I swear that half the local slow session plays Lark in the Morning one way and half the other, in that descending close-phrase... ; granted, that's the slow session and in that -particular- example it would sound much better if the descent was either mid-up-mid-down, repeat or up-mid-up-down-repeat and not half one way and half the other...) Err, I think I went onto a tangent. Any-way.

So, anyway, it was still just a joke...

--Chris

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:05 am

Offcourse it was a joke but having a tight and together sessions is one of the things most valued it Ireland. Session with people going in different directions are not considered good sessions at all.

energy · Post by **energy** » Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:32 am

Launching off of what ChrisA said, the Scottish tradition is really far stricter in the approach to tunes. In the Highland piping tradition, ornamention is very strict; it is written into the tune by the composer with no variation and hardly anyone ever dares do anything different. Of course, Irish is very individualistic.

Ever heard of the Scottish Fiddle Orchestra? It's just a bunch of fiddlers playing pipe tunes together in a pipe band manner. They even have the same percussion section...

Nate

_________________
"Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from wordy evidence of the fact."
-George Eliott

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-08-08 10:34 ]

Roger O'Keeffe · Post by **Roger O'Keeffe** » Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:14 am

We might as well blame that on the british army along with the kilts and all the rest of it...

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 12:16 pm

This looks like a good place to ask something I've wondered about for a while now.

Would a player of Scottish trad music use the same ornamentation as is used in Irish trad, cuts, taps, rolls, crans, trebles, and all the rest? If so, do they refer to the ornaments by the same terms or is there a different set of terms to describe them?

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Teri-K · Post by **Teri-K** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:47 pm

On 2002-08-16 14:16, peeplj wrote:
This looks like a good place to ask something I've wondered about for a while now.

Would a player of Scottish trad music use the same ornamentation as is used in Irish trad, cuts, taps, rolls, crans, trebles, and all the rest? If so, do they refer to the ornaments by the same terms or is there a different set of terms to describe them?

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

When speaking about pipe music, it's very different. Ornamentation is more elaborate with different terminology/effect. For example, doublings, crunluaths, taorluaths, grips, d-throws, and birls are played on Great Highlands.

Teri

[ This Message was edited by: teri-K on 2002-08-16 15:48 ]

Hwistle · Post by **Hwistle** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 5:58 pm

On 2002-08-16 14:16, peeplj wrote:
This looks like a good place to ask something I've wondered about for a while now.

Would a player of Scottish trad music use the same ornamentation as is used in Irish trad, cuts, taps, rolls, crans, trebles, and all the rest? If so, do they refer to the ornaments by the same terms or is there a different set of terms to describe them?

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Excellent question, one which I´ve asked to myself and the rest of the world quite often...

It´s true that Highland pipers have different names for sometimes similar ornaments. It would be good to have a kind of equivalences list of both.

Fiddler also have other names for different techniques, for instance a "birl" (also in GHB idiom) would be something similar to a bowed triplet, and a "doodle" something similar to a "quadruplet" (not sure about that, though)

Anyway, I´m not fiddler nor GHB piper so maybe we need the opinions of these to clarify the terminology question.

Cheers,

Manuel Waldesco

Teri-K · Post by **Teri-K** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:26 pm

Again, I can only speak in regards to pipes. As an ex-Great Highland, now Highland smallpipes player, I'd say about the only similarity in ornamentation is a cut. Where a roll in ITM is played with a cut above and a tap below the note, STM pipers would use, say on a low "G", a high G, E then D grace note combination to get the triplet. The ornamentation is more complex, with gracenote combinations of up to 9 notes as in a crunluath. It's difficult to explain, but better seen on a page to understand.

Teri

[ This Message was edited by: teri-K on 2002-08-16 21:27 ]