Are All Irelands All That Nowadays?

[bradhurley]

Large cultural institutions of any kind tend to have a homogenizing influence. I've met chefs who say they can go out to eat and tell by the menu and presentation where the restaurant's chef went to cooking school. My brother went to the North Bennett Street School in Boston, a school for woodworkers and luthiers, and he can easily spot other graduates' cabinetmaking at fine woodworking shows. Some fiction writers talk disparagingly of the "Iowa Writers' Workshop Style," and graphic designers can often tell where another designer went to art school by looking at their work.

The really great artists, writers, musicians, etc. either don't need to go to these schools, or else they go and learn what's useful to them while steering clear of the ruts in the road and maintaining their own voice and creativity. It's the same with business schools. I read recently that there are only four MBAs among the chief executives of the top 50 Forbes 400 companies.

I think Comhaltas has value and has done great things, but the homogenizing effect is an unfortunate and perhaps inevitable outcome. And I think many of the greatest traditional Irish musicians have no interest in competing or being part of the CCE world, and thus the competitions reveal only the "best" of one particular subculture of Irish music.

[djm]

A piper I know who is a member of a CCÉ branch went to a class held in NYC on how to become a judge for CCÉ-sponsored events. The instructor was from Ireland, a fiddler judge, who announced at the outset that he couldn't stand the pipes, and proceeded to give the standards for fiddles and dance only. I think that kind of re-inforces what Brad and Sean have related above.

djm

[kenny]

Eldarion says - "I've had the opportunity to listen to a few relatively recent All Ireland winners lately, some flute and some pipes. After listening to the standard of these winners, it has made me wonder about the general worth of the title nowadays".

I can say -
"I've had the opportunity to listen to and play along with a few of last weekend's All Ireland winners lately, some flute ,fiddle, and whistle".
Although they're from Glasgow, Mairead McManus and Katie Boyle won the Senior All Ireland Duets yesterday. I heard them at the Willie Clancy week in July, and had assumed they were Irish until I heard them speaking. Excellent musicians, the pair of them.
Also at the Willie Clancy week 3 years ago I sat in a session with a young flute player called Edward Looney, from Kerry. Yesterday he won the Senior tin-whistle, and also mouth-organ, both at the age of 18.
None of these musicians could ever, based on my experiences, be described as "uninspired" or "boring".
Now if I were to extrapolate this in the way Eldarion has, would I not be justified in arriving at the exact opposite conclusion about the worth of an All Ireland title ?

[MurphyStout]

Now if I were to extrapolate this in the way Eldarion has, would I not be justified in arriving at the exact opposite conclusion about the worth of an All Ireland title ?

Maybe, or maybe you don't share the excellence of taste that Eldarion has.

[BigDavy]

Murphy Stout said

kenny wrote:

Now if I were to extrapolate this in the way Eldarion has, would I not be justified in arriving at the exact opposite conclusion about the worth of an All Ireland title ?


Maybe, or maybe you don't share the excellence of taste that Eldarion has.

Murphy Stout, you have never heard kenny play, I have. If you had, then you wouldn't have made this statement.

Kenny please post a clip of your playing and clear up this misconception.

David

[MurphyStout]

Yes Kenny, please do! I would love to hear you play! I would like nothing more than to learn that there are more young people out there in the fleadhs playing good music. I'm just going on the ASSumption that I've heard a good representation of the caliber of music being played. If that's true, Eldarion and I do not share the same idea of what is good music as does Kenny.

[Cathy Wilde]

The hardest thing I've ever had to do (besides fun things like bury my parents, etc.) was judge an Easter coloring contest for children ages 3 - 10.

Talk about heartbreaking. Here was the kid who picked every color with such attention to accuracy, making sure the bunny was brown, the eggs were Easter-y colors, etc. -- you know that child spent hours on that drawing. And over here was the free spirit who said "What if the bunny was polka-dotted, too? And hey, he needs a hat!" And then there are the 3-year olds who colored with such incredible verve and enthusiasm -- all over the page, but hey, that's what happens when you're 3!

So there are lots of factors at work in competition, I think. The biggest one is, I believe, thinking the judge is marking one way and trying to play to the judge -- which some people do, and many are tempted to do when nervous! And then there are the others .... Perhaps you're just green at that level. Perhaps that's the ONLY performing you ever really do alone. Perhaps you're just plain nervous or have a stomach-ache. Or perhaps you're really just not that good, but other competitors all screw up royally beyond overlooking on that particular day. Or perhaps the judge is just bad ... it all adds up. So who knows?

I also think age is a factor, especially when you're youngish. There's a big difference between the way a girl of 18 or 20 is going to play compared to a man of near-80 who's been playing the tunes all his life, no matter who comes from where.

And now let's be the judges for a minute. How are the they being measured? Are they going to get hollered at for honoring flair? Are they going to be strung up for overlooking a mistake? Are they going to be applauded for appreciating style, or reviled for ignoring the fine points of the rule book? (And hey, are they nervous they're going to screw up?)

And, to Sean's point (and believe me, he knows about this -- hi Sean! hi Orla!), what kinds of judges are being HIRED for the job? That tells you a lot about the personality of the organization doing the hiring. If they're looking for judges who eschew appreciation for style and creativity in favor of slavish adherence to the rule-book and mechanical precision, well .... what are competitors to do if they want to win?

So in other words, this may not be the way these folks really play. And in some cases the winning rounds might not necessarily be what the judges really like, either.

Alas, it's been that way since Day One in most any event that's not based on an absolute like a stopwatch. And, until CCE gives sufficient, perhaps even equal, weight to style, artistic impression, and feel for the music -- i.e., creates marks that challenge the judges to score boldly, reward risk, and thus invite the players to take some risks -- it'll probably stay that way.

In my horse show days I sometimes found myself brave enough to let fly with a brilliant test; other days I played it conservative, and I couldn't tell you why other than that was just how my horse was, or how I rode that day. (Doesn't mean I was happy about it, though!)

And I must admit I've taken home the medal when, if you were judging technical precision, I shouldn'tve -- I made mistakes, but the judge just liked our performance better than others. On other days I turned in mechanically precise rides that won even though my horse and I yawned our ways through the entire test. And then there were those rare, VERY rare, days I got to do both precision and flair .... and sometimes didn't ribbon at all! (Totally bad judging those days, IMO )

So bottom line, competition is a crap shoot. Always has been, always will be. It's just unfortunate that it often turns out to be a bunch of crap, too.

[Cynth]

I'm interfering with good intentions, please just hear me out.

MurphyStout, I know you don't know kenny. He doesn't post very often. But he has been playing and performing on the flute and whistle in Scotland since the 1970's. He is active in the Scottish Culture and Traditions group and sent me a tape and tunes to help me learn some Scottish tunes. He is a whistle teacher. Sorry, kenny, don't mean to embarrass you. But I know this is not the issue here.

TO THE POINT--

I believe kenny is not arguing one way or the other about the overall quality of the winners of the contest. He is saying that he had good listening experiences with a few winners, you, or Eldarion, had bad ones with a few.

He is not questioning anyone's listening ability or judgment.

He then is saying did anyone, you guys or kenny, hear enough players to draw a conclusion? You may think you did, and that's okay---except kenny heard about the same number of good ones so logically he would have to draw the opposite conclusion. It sounds like kenny thinks both parties did not hear enough to draw a conclusion. Anyway, I think that is the question that is up for debate---how many players would make up a representative sample?

[colomon]

He then is saying did anyone, you guys or kenny, hear enough players to draw a conclusion?

Considering there are 40+ winners each year just in over-18 age category, it would be pretty hard work to actually hear a representative sample.

Hmmm.... there's a one-row accordion category. Maybe next year I should take the 4-stop and my bassoon to the Midwest Regional...

[Cynth]

I should have said that I have no opinion in the matter since I know nothing about it. I was just trying to straighten out what looked to be a mix-up. A bassoon sounds good to me.

[colomon]

I should have said that I have no opinion in the matter since I know nothing about it. I was just trying to straighten out what looked to be a mix-up.

And you did a fine job. I was just trying to emphasize that odds are none of the people in this discussion have come anywhere close to hearing enough recent winners to make a blanket statement about their playing.

I mean, I almost piped up with an opinion, but on consideration, I've only heard (I think) 2 of the senior winners in the last five years, out of (probably) at least 125 musicians. Not much of a sample.

By the way, one of those All-Ireland winners was the guy who beat me the year I did compete on bassoon at the Midwest Regional (US) Fleadh... I want to say he occasionally posts here, but maybe that was on IRTrad.

[Cynth]

Wait, there is a competition for the bassoon? I think I am confused. I thought it was only certain instruments and that they would be ones that one commonly heard playing Irish traditional music. I hadn't really associated the bassoon with ITM. Is it a competition for all kinds of music? I know people will be roaring at this.

[colomon]

There is a "miscellaneous instruments" category for ITM played on instruments not otherwise in the competition. Back when I had been playing whistle for about two years, I entered that category playing bassoon. As I didn't really know what I was doing in ITM yet at that point, it was an abject failure, although I successfully amused a lot of people who heard me.

I was beaten by David James, who played hammered dulcimer. He went on to win the All-Ireland Miscellaneous that year. Other instruments I've seen in the category include cello and mandola.

Oddly enough, I think you could enter Miscellaneous playing low whistle -- you could probably make an argument that a Bb whistle would qualify, even. (The rules are a little vague on what key a "proper" high whistle is.) Never heard of anyone doing it, though...

[Eldarion]

Now if I were to extrapolate this in the way Eldarion has, would I not be justified in arriving at the exact opposite conclusion about the worth of an All Ireland title ?

If the winners you met were as good as you say, that would be all fine and dandy. All Ireland winners should be good, very good in fact. The problem arrives when a handful of these All Irelanders from recent years start sounding less than good, uninspiring, boring. What does it say about the title? Bearing in mind that these were more prestigious titles like for solo flute and pipes, not meaning miscellaneous instruments etc.

I have never said anywhere that I'm assuming every winner of this competition weren't worth their salt, but rather, how can the judges even let some of these people become All Ireland winners without causing some questioning of the competition's integrity? (or what is left of it if what Sean says is true)

[Sean Dillon]

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