Are All Irelands All That Nowadays?

[Eldarion]

I've had the opportunity to listen to a few relatively recent All Ireland winners lately, some flute and some pipes. After listening to the standard of these winners, it has made me wonder about the general worth of the title nowadays.

All the musicians I heard were technically sound as they should be if they are in such a competition. However the playing uninspiring and simply boring. One flute player for example, kept on sticking to all the "safe" breathing spots in a manner that caused the phrasing to end up totally conservative and uninspired.

In general there was no sense of spontaneity, no character to the music of some of these winners. No nyaah associated with powerful Irish trad music.

Merits and demerits of official competitions in the music aside (for another thread perhaps), I can understand how these titles provide a channel for recognition in the ITM community. However whether this recognition is due is another matter. I feel it is doing the music no favours, giving All Irelands to musicians of that level of musicality. The playing of All Ireland Winners is supposed to exemplify what good ITM is about. And if this kind of sanitary playing is what organisations are recognizing as good, and encouraging younger musicians to look up to, you're going to end up with a drop of overall mean musicality.

Does anyone have any comments regarding this issue?

[MurphyStout]

I was wanting to have a discussion on this subject myself sooner or later after hearing a few clips and some of the musicians featured on the bloom of youth RTE series. Hearing there opinions and influences also was very enlightening. I found (big shock) that the ones I enjoyed really went after older players for influence. And then ones I didn't like were extremely CCE based and extremely influenced by players like Matt Molloy and Kevin Crawford and the big band sound. (don't get in tissy, Matt Molloy is the greatest ever but too many people try to sound exactly like him and not one of them have succeeded. Kinda like Micheal Jordan compared to the Bryants, Lebron's etc).

As in that clip of James Murray floating around, I feel that there is too much influence in playing fast and technique and not nearly enough focusing on style and the tunes. And also like James Murray in the clip. I can't tell some of these players apart because so many flute players, fiddlers and pipers all sound the same.

[Wombat]

Eld, have you heard clips of people who are entering and not winning who sound better to you? If you are right about the standard of winners falling, that could be a matter of rewarding technical precision more than soul and spark, but it might reflect a lower standard in the entrants. I would imagine that these things are cyclical. I would expect technical competence to come along all the time but people with something of their own to say to come along only occasionally and at unpredictable intervals.

[Cayden]

I was listening to some stuff on the Fleadh Ceol na hEirreann on the radio yesterday. One thing that struck me was that all musicians were referred to all the time as 'performers' as '20.000 performers roamed the streets of Letterkenny today'.

One commentator was talking how it used to be the one style that the adjudicators were after, individuality was not appreciated. He went on to say that was no longer the case. I wouldn't agree with him on the last one.

[AaronMalcomb]

Have you listened to many older recordings of the A.I.* ? Have you heard the current A.I. performers outside of competition?

I ask because maybe what you're hearing is just the influence of competing. The performer might be playing it clean and safe for the sake of getting the prize.

Just a guess.

Cheers,
Aaron

* A.I. = All Ireland though the allusion to "artificial intelligence" is not missed.

[Cayden]

I feel there is a quite definite 'Comhaltas style', the organisation favours a certain image and that shines through in the fleadh big time. There's always a tv series with music from the Fleadh, interestingly in each half hour programme there's always one three minute item with people whom I think of as playing nice music.

[MurphyStout]

Have you listened to many older recordings of the A.I.* ? Have you heard the current A.I. performers outside of competition?

I ask because maybe what you're hearing is just the influence of competing. The performer might be playing it clean and safe for the sake of getting the prize.

Just a guess.

Cheers,
Aaron

* A.I. = All Ireland though the allusion to "artificial intelligence" is not missed.

For my part I have Aaron. And as far playing it clean and safe. I've heard from a friend of mine and a reliable source that sometimes the winners at fleahds make mistakes when they are playing and sometimes have to start all over. So I don't think it is about playing safe. I think it's about the downfall of style and the immergence of the standerd session player.

With regards to eld's initial post. What are the options? Do away with the comp altogether because it's not like they can just go out and say "sorry, there just aren't any suitable candidates for the title so go home?" I can think of many years in the NBA when the competition wasn't as good but they still gave the best team a title at the end of the year.

[BigDavy]

Hi Murphy Stout

I have to disagree with you there on the lack of stylistic difference in the CCE.

The branches all have their own particular slant, depending on where the original members came from in Ireland. The 4 local branches all have thier own mixture of Donegal / Antrim / Sligo / Roscommon / Scottish influences and if you can hear it in thier playing.

On the other hand if you are talking about competing then they are looking very hard at the technique and the mechanics of the playing, you must still be musical, but that is only part of what they are looking for.

David

[Craig Stuntz]

With regards to eld's initial post. What are the options? Do away with the comp altogether because it's not like they can just go out and say "sorry, there just aren't any suitable candidates for the title so go home?" I can think of many years in the NBA when the competition wasn't as good but they still gave the best team a title at the end of the year.

Submitted without comment:
Maintaining high standards at the International Frederic Chopin Piano Competition

The quintennial International Frederick Chopin Piano Competition will be held later this year, and I was reminded that the awards for "Best performance of a mazurka" and "Best performance of a concerto" have not been awarded since 1985. Simply put: Nobody since 1985 has been good enough to deserve it.

[djm]

Competitions are always like this once they have been around for a while. When the judging is spotty and subjective everybody screams at the organization to make the rules clear and fair for all. The judging is forced to eventually leave out any notion of what sounds "good" or "right", and is left with nothing but mechanical playing and technique. I would not look to these competitions to be anything more than running a machine through a test lab for performance. In the end, what sounds good remains with the ear of the listener.

djm

[MurphyStout]

I have to disagree with you there on the lack of stylistic difference in the CCE.

The branches all have their own particular slant, depending on where the original members came from in Ireland. The 4 local branches all have thier own mixture of Donegal / Antrim / Sligo / Roscommon / Scottish influences and if you can hear it in thier playing.

Well that's fine if you want to disagree. I had an oppurtunity to sit in a session this summer with Kevin Henry of sligo and one of the young players from the same county. I talked with this young player and she was very CCE orientated and began learning and playing as a part of that orgination. Nowadays she plays in the very typical modern style and listening to her and Kevin Henry up close together it was like night and day between them. Really amazing actually. And I have heard this similarity outside of these particular example.

However I haven't heard everybody! So maybe you are right and I've just missed how the CCE has heald on to traditions and styles of the various regions. But I highly doubt it due to the amount of listening I've done.

[BigDavy]

HI Murphy Stout


I totally agree with you that the CCE has done nothing much to preserve the regional styles.

What the young players pick up are the regional styles that the teachers in the branch have. Around here it is a mixture of the Donegal, Sligo, Antrim and Roscommon styles that predominate with a leavening of Scottish and Cape Breton from the younger teachers. Personally I think that a distinct style of play, for the second and third generation Irish players in South West Scotland, is developing from this mix.

I would make the assumption that that is true for the US as well.

David

[Eldarion]

I have not heard the other contestants in the competition and the clips I heard were in a non-competition context. So I'm not sure if its the judges not selecting for musicality or if it was an overall drop in standard. Either way I don't think it makes a big difference, the bottom line was that the people I heard recently, who were awarded the All-Ireland sounded rather insipid. Although I don't look to All-Ireland winners for inspiration I am concerned if younger players look to these as exemplars of the music, perpetuating the cycle of musical blandness.

Isn't the aim of an All Ireland to exemplify what good traditional music sounds like? I think whichever style you play, be it Donegal or Kerry, an experienced musician can tell if there is character and that spark of spontaneity to your music. And I would expect the judges to be experienced musicians who have done their share of listening of various styles.

What would interest me is if the judges actually comment on this trend, if it is an overall decrease in level of musicality? I think if this be the case, the issue should be addressed in one way or another. Or do they really admit they are powerless in selecting for anything else other than technique?

[Eldarion]

* A.I. = All Ireland though the allusion to "artificial intelligence" is not missed.

American Idol?

[Sean Dillon]

delete