ITM and Harmonic Minor Scale

[talasiga]

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harmonic minor in ITM

[benhall.1]

I hadn't seen this thread before. What fun!

I was interested to see that the jig,
the White Petticoat shifts from E Aeolian to E Kirwani or E natural minor to to E harmonic minor in certain section.

Um ... no it doesn't. It's in E Aeolian (unusual for ITM, unlike Dorian which is extraordinarily common) throughout. The odd note here or there is inflected, that's all.

I've never heard a version where every D is sharpened. That would be just plain weird. It's a strange enough tune as it is ...

When you get them they're quite simple, these mode thingies, y' know.

[benhall.1]

I am sure I have heard this played on fiddle sometimes where all the 7ths are raised, meaning all the D are D#. Such interpretations of the piece render it totally harmonic minor.

Um ... no, again. That would mean that it was in something totally weird that isn't used - ever - in either ITM, or Western classical music. Jewish, maybe?

Oh, and if we're talking about scales, instead of how the harmonic minor is actually used in music, let's be clear that the harmonic minor scale on E does not go like this:

E F# G A B cnat d# e

It actually goes:

E F# G A B c# d# e dnat cnat B A G F# E

which is different.

[MTGuru]

let's be clear that the harmonic minor scale on E does not go like this:

E F# G A B cnat d# e

It actually goes:

E F# G A B c# d# e dnat cnat B A G F# E

That last is melodic minor, no?

[benhall.1]

Oh rats! Serves me right for being a smart- ... so and so. Rats! Rats! Rats! Rats! Rats!

Even so, you wouldn't get a melody in classical music in harmonic minor. And my mistake, above, has led me to another insight - Coleraine isn't in harmonic minor. It's just in a minor key. Melodic, basically. Hence the gnat followed by g# in the second part.

[edited to add ...]

... not a very profound insight ...

[Denny]

it's Monday....keep at 'em

[talasiga]

The harmonic minor scale is like the natural minor scale (the Aeolian Mode) except the 7th is raised - ie a natural 7th.

it covers the octave in this semitone values:-
2:1:2:2:1:3:1

another easy way to express its template is:

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 8

Therefore in A it goes
A B C D E F G# A+

in E it goes
E F# G A B C D# E+

in B
B C# D E F# G A# B+
etc etc
______________________________
As I have said in several places
it is an actually used scale in much middle eastern, eastern european (including Klezmer) and East Asian traditions, both folk and art music. I think it is known as Hijaz (nor to be confused with other Hijaz-Kar etc) in the Eastern Euro and Arabic trads and Kirwani in the Indic trad.