Pipes- how is value determined?

[glands]

So many very different things are taken into consideration when valuing a good or service. In many arenas, such as in the world of Uilleann piping, delivery of goods and the provision of related services are linked. So, whats important to you in valuating a set of Uilleann pipes. Here are my thoughts:

Playability of the set as it relates to me including fit, biomechanics, balance of reeds, etc.

Tonal quality, tuning, and all of those features that relate to the opportunity to create music

Aesthetics and construction of the set as well as durability

Maker(s) abilities and reputation

Aftercare or service provided which includes attitude of those servicing the set

Value as percieved by others in regards to these elements

Availability (or lack thereof) of similarly constructed sets

And, most importantly, the $ amount one is willing to pay to own a particular set

All of the above, and likely other issues as well, contribute to or detract from the value of a set and affect ones desire to own a particular set.

How do you value your set? What $ value do you ascribe to it? Priceless doesn't count. So, if you were to sell it on the open market, what would you ask for it?

For example, a K&Q concert pitch set in my possesion of late constructed of ebony, boxwood, and brass and proclaimed as "the best set in D I've ever played" by a 30+ year piper would be a "priceless" highly desired set. What's it worth? I'd say about $16,000-$18,000. What would you pay for ownership opportunity? Who made your pipes? What do you believe them to be worth on the open market?

[Brazenkane]

What's it worth? I'd say about $16,000-$18,000. What would you pay for ownership opportunity? Who made your pipes? What do you believe them to be worth on the open market?

Hmmm, what I'm gathering is that not only is this is a possible advert for your Q&K set (?), but you'd like some feedback to see if that asking price (16-18k) is reasonable? If so, it begs the question if the average mortal piper can afford such!??

I think it's OK to make a reasonable profit. For example, if that cost 15k, I get it. The new owner pays a "service charge" (if you like), for not having to go through the waiting process, phone calls, etc. Fine. However, price gouging is not (in my opinion), fair. Did the maker price gouge the original buyer? I doubt it.

In my own experience, I was courting the idea of purchasing a Q&K 3/4 set that came up some years back. The man wanted 13k for it! I realllllly wanted it! Though, when I contacted the makers to ask their opinion on such a purchase, they both advised against it e.g that it was priced ridiculously high.

The other side of the coin is this: if the set is made of "unobtain-ium," well then...you either have to pay whatever the gouging might be, even if it's 36k!

OR

(and this is what one of the makers of the 3/4 set told me) "do not perpetuate these type of sales, and don't purchase the pipes!"

In 1999 I had become enamoured with Eamonn Dillon's Q&K concert chanter, and I've been a devoted fan ever since. In spite of all that, I passed on the deal, as I have deep respect both makers. I don't think I ever told them how difficult it was for me to do that, because I thought it was my only chance to not only play one of their D chanters, but too a body of theirs! As the years have gone by, I'm glad I made that decision to pass. Ethically, it was the right thing to do (for me).

It's not my intention to do your possible advert a disservice, nor to dissuade anyone from their dream set. However, If I saw that a Q&K set was going to 16-18k, (and I know how much they go for new), I would again think the same thing that I thought when I passed on the 3/4 set.


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[myrddinemrys]

Personally, I would not let go of my own set for any price. If I were to do so, I would not let it go for less than I paid for it.

Something else to add to your list: How unique is the item? (i.e.-- Is this a set that was made by a deceased maker and/or owned by a famous piper?)

[Steampacket]

A secondhand K&Q D set probably around 8-9.000 USD, not more. A secondhand Dave Williams D set 10-12.000 USD prehaps more. A secondhand G. Wooff C set 15-18.000 USD prehaps more. A Gibson Les Paul Standard '58-'59 'Burst 160.000 USD and up. The market decides doesn't it.

[Brazenkane]

Steam: Sorry, but you're misinformed. A K/Q FS in D NEW goes for more than 8-9k. K/Q kits do not go down in price! The orginal point I was making is that they shouldn't go Saturn-wards pricewise!

"The market decides" is a loose term. Again, this begs the question, "If someone will pay 18k for a set that cost 12k, what service is the seller doing to the community vs. the service they are doing to themselves?"

**Also, the guitar buying market is only comparable to the pipes-market in the fact there there is money, instruments, buyers, and sellers involved. All similarities end there**

If they are not part of the piping community, then I suppose that detachment would mentally free the individual to ask the highest price. Too, I think making a $6000.00 profit would be acceptable if the seller was in dyer circumstances (needed a sugery, or was to be thrown out of there home, etc). Having said that, I have enough faith in this community that we would raise the money with donations, if that were the case. If Joey Abarta could raise thousands for a recording, the community could easily band together and raise money to help someone in serious need.

The above is an example to drive home my the point in my original post...

[NicoMoreno]

Wow, I don't think pre-ordering a CD is the same as giving someone money because they're in dire financial need.

[Brazenkane]

..I believe you missed my point entirely, which I went into great detail to explain, already.

Also, I was referring to donations re: kickstarter. Since I see where this is going, I will nip this in the bud and say, I have nothing against raising money via kickstarted, Joey and I are friends (and he did a nice job with the video, the pitch idea, and his record.

There! Disclaimer said, now get back on topic, thank you!

[Calum]

If a fully informed buyer and seller are willing to trade a set for a certain price, I struggle to see that it's anyone else's business. I struggle to see that I'd pay some of the numbers being quoted.

However, the simple fact is if I want - say a Wooff set, I'm not going to get a new one. I have to buy one of the rare sets that come on the second hand market and it's not like there are a lot of sellers out there.

I do wonder if some makers shouldn't be charging a lot more than they are. The guitar world has its Somogyis and Sobells - I don't see any reason the piping world should be any different.

[myrddinemrys]

As much work as goes into them, I wonder they don't charge more.

I don't think the guitar market is a good juxtaposition for pricing UPs. The guitar market is over saturated . . . lots of buyers and sellers, driven by mass production, dealers, and rock-star endorsements, not to mention cheap guitar brands being pushed out the door by Guitar Center to overwhelm the market with volume. We don't have that in UP-world, so there isn't a comparison, here.

[glands]

Sets are getting expensive. That's for sure.

K&Q sets are top shelf pipes in the concert pitch world. And, I haven't found a C set that even comes close to rivaling my K&Q C set. Geoff Woof makes some awesome sounds and M Smyth's C# set of his make is a sound to pine for...one of the best sounding sets I've heard. G McKeagney's B set is in that class. There are other great makers who are still alive. I'm not omitting them and stating that K&Q and Woof are the only top shelf sets available. They are, however, my favorites!!

Frankly, I think Geoff Woof is the only pipemaker who prices his sets according to their value to the owners.

What's with this nonsense of a pipemaker taking liberties and stating what an instrument is worth on resale? It's none of their damn business!! I lost $1000 on a recent resale of a K&Q B chanter. Did DMQ offer a comment on that transaction? No. Did he over charge me? No. I sold it for what the market, outside the original transaction, would bear. And it was at a loss. Do I begrudge DMQ? No. Because, I bought it for what I agreed and for what I felt it would be worth to me. And, its value, using the complexity that I wrote about, dropped to the point that I would rather move it on to someone who could get a reed for it and would play it. I had to sell it for what someone would pay for it...or not sell it and not play it. There is a point where thre $ is worth more than an instrument in a case. I want to play these things...not to just covet them. Again, It's all about what the market bears. It's what people who can and are willing to pay will pay for a set given all the many variables that go into the true value of a set.

It's not about making a profit...or taking a loss. Further, selling a chanter or a set is a difficult decision, is an emotional experience, and the value of a set is oft higher than it was at purchase for lots of reasons. Getting back to the comment about what the pipemaker said about the price of resale, if the pipemaker feels the resale prices are too high or the "appreciation" of the instrument is too great, then he or she doesn't value the work. So, its really an odd thing, isn't it? Said pipemaker would probably try to sell his home today for more than he or she paid. what's the difference????

K&Q and Woof sets are Ferrari sets. Not everyone can afford to "drive them." But that doesn't mean that they should be devalued so all "drivers" could afford to own one.

Why this topic? Because I've given a lot of thought to the value of sets of late. Not onlymy own....but also in regards to a set that a friend was interested in owning. There are $3000 chanters out there. Old rickety sets with expensive price tags. I've purchased two such sets in the past...gave them both away to friends. So, I'm thinking about all of this. And, thanks for your comments.

[Brazenkane]

As much work as goes into them, I wonder they don't charge more.

Many of them wonder the same, too!

We don't have that in UP-world, so there isn't a comparison, here.

The difference goes far deeper than that!

Firstly, builders struggle with the balance of making something affordable and earning a decent wage. Makers earn a better wage when as they make better instruments. I would venture to say that master craftsman such as Quinn, Hubbert, Woofe (just to namet 3 of the very few who can be categorized as such) most likely ponder how they can get a decent wage without gouging the market.

Ultimately, and from what I've learned talking to these people first hand is that aside from wanting to get a proper wage for their efforts, they all want their instruments to end up in the hands of capable, enthusiastic, and dare I say musical customers! One simply can't "get there" by charging ridiculous prices.

Secondly, most of us in this community (that have been in it for a while) understand there is an unspoken ediquette. That's is a tough one to define. One can start by reading this site; all of it's past posts to start getting somewhat of an idea how things go, more or less. There are some "old world" values that still exist. They are challenging to uphold, too. It's easy to get an absurd price for certain pipes, but again...how does that best serve the community?

Finally, this is a small community. Most everyone knows everyone, if at very most by 1 or 2 persons removed. So, it ain't nearly similar the guitar world (which has perhaps a million communities withing it)!

[glands]

I like M Hubberts work of late. Thanks for mentioning his name. I'll one day hopefully own a chanter of his make.

[Brazenkane]

What's with this nonsense of a pipemaker taking liberties and stating what an instrument is worth on resale? It's none of their damn business!! I lost $1000 on a recent resale of a K&Q B chanter. Did DMQ offer a comment on that transaction? No. Did he over charge me? No. I sold it for what the market, outside the original transaction, would bear. And it was at a loss. Do I begrudge DMQ? No. Because, I bought it for what I agreed and for what I felt it would be worth to me. And, its value, using the complexity that I wrote about, dropped to the point that I would rather move it on to someone who could get a reed for it and would play it. I had to sell it for what someone would pay for it...or not sell it and not play it. There is a point where thre $ is worth more than an instrument in a case. I want to play these things...not to just covet them. Again, It's all about what the market bears. It's what people who can and are willing to pay will pay for a set given all the many variables that go into the true value of a set.

For the record, David wasn't taking any liberty. I asked him, "What do you think," and I asked Ben the same thing. I made it their business because the price was high. David and I talked for a while about the ethics, and in retrospect, it was a good lesson.

I'm pretty sure if you asked David to comment on your transaction, he would've. If not incurring a loss was important, I'd venture to say that if you waited, got the chanter fitted with a nice reed, K., Q., or someone in Ireland (or the rest of the world) could very well have purchased the chanter w/no loss.

What's done is done, though.

[geoff wooff]

I feel that this topic needs a pipemaker's perspective. So here is mine:

I am often asked to 'Value' my work, most usually for Insurance purposes but sometimes when an owner wishes to sell. For insurance valuations a 'replacement cost' has to be given of course, but for making an asking price when advertising a set some people want to use the current New price or even above. I have no objection to this if the instrument is of recent construction . It has happened that a customer re-sold a new set within months of recieving it and made 150% of his purchase price..... and that hurts !!

When someone wants to sell a set that I made many years ago, which does not meet my current standards, at a price that sits on the shoulders of a reputation that took years to build... I do get ebarrassed. In defence of those early instruments, they were as good as I could make at the time and I had to learn all this somehow and the selling prices were very low. When someone has a set that cost $1500 in 1980 and they sell it for $15,000 in 2013....!

I usually try to advise a seller of one of my older instruments by suggesting a price that reflects how much I think it might cost to bring the old set up to my current standard , as enevitably the sold set will arrive here for service work,... this could include making a new chanter and changing all the consumables ( bag, bellows, reeds etc.). I think this is a fair point.

Nowadays things are a little different, because I try to set my prices to reflect the real cost of living . Try this simple calculation;
I have just spent 6 months making a Full Set (ordinarily it should not take me so long but lets take out a month for Summer, holidays and visitors etc... and another month because I am still not up to full strength after suffering a Stroke last year)... so I am able to produce 3 full sets per year ( at the finnest quality I can manage). This would suggest that my selling price should be 1/3rd of a year's salary.

So, what is your yearly income ? Are you prepared to pay 1/3rd of it for a Full set ?

Living from hand to mouth, for the love of the instrument, etc.etc., is begining to wear a little thin

Geoff Wooff.

[Lorenzo]

It has happened that a customer re-sold a new set within months of recieving it and made 150% of his purchase price..... and that hurts !!

I've bought and sold around six or seven different sets of UPs, just looking for the right one, and never made a profit on them. I always felt the uilleann pipes were just a little too sacred to be trying to do that.

But, I want to tell you Geoff, that I felt the same way when I was building custom houses for people. It kind of hurt to see people live in one of those houses for a year, then sell it for twice or three times as much as it cost them (for construction). I couldn't afford to buy their finished house! They had regular "other" jobs too. Of course they'd purchase the land, do improvements like landscaping, drapes, fencing, tool sheds, etc., and house values kept climbing, plus there was inflation. But still, it was mostly just the fact that the house was finished and marketable that they were able to do so well.

So, I stopped building houses for other people and started building them for myself. I'd live in one, make it my residence (for tax purposes--capital gains), and then every couple of years I'd put one up for sale and build another. And what a relief it was...being able to set my own hours and not go through the headaches and red tape of hiring employees and bookkeepers, license and insurance, sub-contractors (for speed), and trying to please some potentially difficult customers. All of the stress and tension disappeared and I finally started to LIVE and maximize the profits off of my labor. That was years ago and I've never looked back!

If people are making a profit off of a pipe maker's reputation and talent, why shouldn't the pipe maker do the same as I did with houses and put every finished product directly on the market? It use to be that a product, like musical instruments, needed a retailer as an in-between source, but not nowadays. I realize that it's still possible for someone, like the world's best violin maker, to charge seemingly maximum prices, and then have collectors take over and drive the values up once again. And maybe that's what's happening in some cases. I see Pat Sky still has his Rowesome set FS for $20K USD. But living pipe makers can fight back.