Pipes- how is value determined?

[Brazenkane]

It's somewhat curious that you and others imply that people shouldn't be able to acquire sets because they can front the $ but that good musicians deserve great sets at reasonable prices. The points seem counterintuitive to economics and reflect a sense of musicians entitlement. What about the top shelf pipe makers? Why shouldn't Mr Quinn be able to charge $16,000 for a set of pipes?

Apparently, I need to reiterate the thread that I thought I had been quite clear about all along.
Actually, may I direct you back to my last post, and kindly ask you to re-read it. I didn't veil any thoughts, rather I directly laid them out and addressed (rather than imply) everything. Also, re: economics.. go back to my first post, and maybe even one after that, too. I covered that in depth.

What I am gathering is that though my points are "well-taken," you have a very different perspective on these matters.

ps As a music professor, 16K is serious load of cash to me.

[Lorenzo]

Pipes - how is value determined?

After reading this thread, I've come to believe there are several ways. And every method has its own right of way. If you don't believe in making a profit, that's good for everyone. If you want to make a profit, and someone will pay, both benefit. If someone wants to keep the price low so the pipes are affordable to newer, younger, and perhaps poverty stricken players, the player benefits, and the seller/maker has his/her rewards. If someone is selling a set that was purchased 30 years ago, for very little, by a still-in-demand pipe maker, and chooses to make a profit to keep up with inflation, nothing wrong with that. Replacement values have bitten some in this regard...not realizing what it cost to get another similar set. Question is: how do you determine replacement value--waiting time included.

So, there are no across-the-board rules, no one method, IMO anyway.

[boreen]

Let’s face it. If you read between the lines, this thread was never meant to be a real question about how the value of pipes is determined.

If one reads carefully, Gland’s initial and subsequent posts were designed to do three things:
1. Advertise and re-sell a set of pipes he had recently purchased from two respected makers.
2. Justify making a significant profit from that set.
3. Get in a few digs at the makers for perceived slights and/or shortcomings.

This has much to do with innuendo, gripe-airing, and the power of money.

It has very little to do with music and the generosity of spirit which is usually at the heart of the piping community.

Perhaps it's time to move on to another topic.

[glands]

Let’s face it. If you read between the lines, this thread was never meant to be a real question about how the value of pipes is determined.

If one reads carefully, Gland’s initial and subsequent posts were designed to do three things:
1. Advertise and re-sell a set of pipes he had recently purchased from two respected makers.
2. Justify making a significant profit from that set.
3. Get in a few digs at the makers for perceived slights and/or shortcomings.

This has much to do with innuendo, gripe-airing, and the power of money.

It has very little to do with music and the generosity of spirit which is usually at the heart of the piping community.

Perhaps it's time to move on to another topic.

No, you're wrong.

In fact, the pipes were sold BEFORE I made the first post. S-O-L-D. B-E-F-O-R-E. Get that?

I made the inquiry as I had a some difficulty in arriving at my decision to sell the set. I had to really determine what was important to me about the instrument. The circumstances led me to ponder and the thread was really to stimulate discussion about value. So, read my initial post. I proposed the things that cause me to value a set...and asked others what they thought contributed to the value of their sets. The rest of you derailed it. Typical internet sh*t. Reminds me as to why I have not had much to say on this forum for the past 8 years or so.

As I said, I made no profit off of the set. I sold it for more than I paid...at FMV!! I recouped my costs, multiple shipping costs, and interest. When I agreed to the purchase, I paid the maker MORE than he was asking as I felt it was worth more and I encouraged him to charge more. I did lose $1000 on the sale of a chanter of their make. Does that make you happy? That I lost money?

Money IS powerful. It buys gasoline. Electricity. Food. Shelter. Your internet subscription (unless you're pirating off your neighbors wireless). And Uilleann pipes. That's a lot of power.

In their defense, one of the makers offered to purchase the set back from me..... at a time that I was ecstatic with the set! Who does that?!?!?!? That offended rather than appeased me. That offer was the one circumstance that finally negatively colored my entire perception of the set and led me to begin to think about selling it to whom I damn well pleased. As far as generosity of spirit is concerned, I made the set available to one who has hoped for a K&Q set for 10-15 years thus creating opportunity that did not exist. I championed the cause of a good friend! And, he is now making good music!!!! I didn't sell it to the man I could've, my best friend who admired the set and knew the asking price, as I did not wanna see it at his home when I visited! That is a mark of my visceral responses to the set. Imagine that!!! A negative visceral response to a set that a professional player with about 35-40 years of experience remarked is "the best D set I have ever played." Now, THAT is a valuable set...worth a lot of money!!!!

Truthfully, I am a champion of Quinn pipes. And Koehler reeds. In fact, I absolutely adore my C set and play it regularly. Tonite even!!!

The negative attitudes towards the sale says a lot about this group. The banter should be "Whoa...a K&Q set sold for $16,250!! Awesome!!!!! Worth every penny!!!! That's the spirit of appreciation. David and Benedict must rise to the difficult task of deciding what to do in regards to pricing in light of this information. Honestly, I feel they deserve that amount for their sets.....and I'm the one who was disgruntled with a recent experience!! Go figure!!! Some of you have not been smart enough to figure this one out.

And yes, boreen, you're very welcome to move on to another topic.....if you will, please. But, wait.....you did not answer the question....how do you ascribe a value to your pipes?

[geoff wooff]

That's a preposterous notion by the maker you reference! It makes the assumption that "my time" and "your time" are worth the same.

Do you not think that your time and the time of another person have equal value ?

[TheSilverSpear]

That's a preposterous notion by the maker you reference! It makes the assumption that "my time" and "your time" are worth the same.

Do you not think that your time and the time of another person have equal value ?

Obviously not. If you work in social care, or you're a waiter, or a teacher, your time isn't as valuable as that of a doctor or a banker or a football player. Ah, isn't the society we live in fantastic.

[rorybbellows]

Just a question for Glands. Did you at one time own this set of pipes ?


RORY

[glands]

That's a preposterous notion by the maker you reference! It makes the assumption that "my time" and "your time" are worth the same.

Do you not think that your time and the time of another person have equal value ?

I value time my time. I cannot ascribe a value to someone elses time. I love my life. Others think their lives are horrible and are depressed. They value it so little that they off themselves. Society ascribes value to what we do, what we create, etc. None of us can change that. The "government" has devalued my time over the past 10 years or so and pays less for what I do for a living for those patients on government-health programs. I don't like it but must accept it as they have guns!! We take a loss for every medicare and medicaid patient we see. We do it altruistically. The amount they would pay a doctor in the Veteran's administration is infinitely more than they pay a postal worker for the US Postal Service. Why is that? Its skilled versus unskilled labor. Education versus the lack thereof. Risk of error (medical decision-making) to others versus little risk of error (unless its a crazed gun-toting shoot 'em up postal worker "gone postal"). All of those things ascribe value to ones time and lead to more or less income.

My point in what was quoted, which I did not really make that clear, is that its unfair to charge one guy more for a good or service the next based on value of time marked by salary and other income. Its unfair for people on this forum to propose a pipemaker restrict prices below FMV so they can afford them. The potential buyer must made a decision as to whether they can or want to afford what is offered. It's certainly unfair for there to be disdain for another because he or she can be a "plank" and afford a top shelf set of pipes.

[glands]

Just a question for Glands. Did you at one time own this set of pipes ?


RORY

Damn. I guess I'll have to tell that story.

Yes, indeed. I did own that set of pipes. They were lovely. Far too much pipes for me, though. They were crafted by Willie Rowsome. Kevin Rowsome, my friend, has an original oil painting in his home of Willie Rowsome with that particular set. I was attempting to play them one day and had this overwhelming desire to gift the set to Kevin. I felt the set should go back to the Rowsome family. My wife agreed. Besides, Kevin and Lorraine had always been so kind to me and my family. Further, he has had a great influence on my pipering ...as have Neillidh Mulligan and Benedict Koehler. At any rate, I offered the set to Kevin as a gift. Free. Without any returns. I was doing the right thing in the spirit of the music as someone called for in this thread. Kevin was ecstatic. He did, in fact, offer me a gift in return. I refused it at first but later accepted the notion of such after it was clear that the favor of generosity is returned by the Rowsome family. So, I asked Benedict Koehler to restore the set and to reed it for Kevin. I offered him good money to do so as I wanted the gift to be complete. A week or so later, Benedict indicated that he wanted to do the work free of charge so that it could also be a gift from him. I generously, but reluctantly, agreed. Puzzled. But agreed. See, I'm the type who can share in something as wonderful and great as that opportunity. Benedict had a chanter in Bb, probably a Willie Rowsome, that he reeded and balanced with the set. At any rate, Benedict had the set for about 4 years, traveled with it to share it with society, and finally restored and reeded it. We presented it to Kevin at the Southern California tionol a few years back. Kevin played a set of tunes on it in concert. I wept. That eve was worth it...worth every bit of the wait and all the money I had spent on the set. I then retired to my hotel with a temp of 104 F with Swine flu. I was soooo sick. Somehow, Benedict decided that I SHOULD NOT be in receipt of a gift in return. He concocted some elaborate scheme of me borrowing something from Kevin, if any thing. I didn't really mind as that gift was given freely without favor in return requested. My philosophy is in keeping with the old adage that it is better to give than it is to receive. I feel good about the set having made its way to Kevin. It was the right thing to do. I received my gift in return, which was not anticipated in the first place as I was returning a set to its rightful owner, when he played that set of tunes at the tionol concert. I'm delighted that Kevin's two daughters are pipering now as I KNOW the ladies will one day grow into and play the set. I look forward to that day with great anticipation! Yet, I couldn't and still can't understand why a man would intercalate himself in the multiple transactions of two other men.

No regrets whatsoever. I love my friends. David Quinn. Benedict, too! And especially Gabrielle!!! And Gabriel McKeagney!!!!

[rorybbellows]

Damn. I guess I'll have to tell that story.

I offered the set to Kevin as a gift. Free. Without any returns.

To be honest Glands I all ready knew the story,but I thought other's should know and best coming from you . I think apologies from some poster's would be appropriate.

RORY

[Lorenzo]

That set of bellows in this picture looks like the bellows that came with my first practice set. They had "W Rousome" (Kevin told me the family name had that spelling at one time) stamped on them. I got them from Armin Barnett (of Hurricane Ridge Runners fame) who got them from Pat Sky. Benedict was soliciting for some Willie bellows to go with a set of pipes he was restoring for Kevin, so I offered him these...as they were just lying around in the attic for about 10 years. He took them and restored them and made a couple reeds in exchange!

[BzzzzT]

Pipemakers are artists. When you create art or chose this as a profession; the choice is not solely about money. You do need to support yourself; but, to produce art it is more about choosing a “lifestyle.” This has intrinsic value, that is not materially tangible. Money can provide things that have value on many levels; this is generally not the sole consideration of the artist. Art is about communication, whether you are a writer, craftsman, musician or visual artist. The things you create have meaning; you are communicating something about yourself. The pipes communicate through music, both externally, and internally, within the individual, and those receiving the communication (music). Money is a means, but not the sole impetus to create.

I find it viscerally uncomfortable to talk about money in relation to art; though this is part of the thing. I am not saying this is wrong or bad; but, talking about money openly is almost a faux pas in dealing with an artist's work. It is best sometimes to be private (not denigrating this thread or the individuals discussing this). Capitalism and art do not always get along. The uilleann pipes are an inherently complex instrument, taking great amounts of time to create, thus bearing a considerable cost. This is an inherent part of the instrument. Money is needed to sustain the individual so it is a required component of creation and an aspect of the whole. Gawd! this is deep! I believe pipemakers do it for more than monetary gain; it is a lifestyle! We must as individuals respect this; it is a choice of the person creating them. We may analyze this; but at the same time, respect must be given to the individual 's choices regarding their art. If we all lived just to support ourselves we would face a poverty of the “soul,” so to speak.


- Jason

[CaoimhinR]

Hi Lewis,

While I do appreciate the generosity of both yourself and Renee, after reading this thread, I feel that I have to clarify the following:

1. Benedict did not have any role to play in relation to the subject of return gift/s;
2. In relation to offering to pay for the restoration......I'm humbled that both yourself and Benedict showed such generosity towards me.

You are welcome to contact me any time to discuss the matter, but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from debating this on a public forum.

Kevin

[benhall.1]

Thread locked for Moderator deliberation - Mod.

Now deliberated. It's run its course. Time to move on - Mod.