Flat sets

[m muir]

I play a concert pitch set which I'm perfectly happy with and don't really envisage getting a flat set. Certainly not for some time but how does someone go about deciding what key flat set to play? B,B flat, C, etc?

[An Draighean]

What did it for me was hearing a flat set in "C" by my pipe maker, in person. It also helped that Séamus Ennis' Coyne set was apparently in "C" as well.

[Ceann Cromtha]

Don't you mean C#? I believe that Ennis's Coyne set was pitched in C#, not C.

[PJ]

Two things to remember, thought. Firstly, it's not all just about pitch. It's also about the tone you get from the instrument. I've heard some C chanters which I thought were in D and some which I thought were B or Bb.

Secondly, the lower the pitch, the bigger the instrument. This might have an impact if you have small hands or a small frame.

So basically, you listen to and play as many different flat sets as you can get your hands on and then you decide which one you like best.

[An Draighean]

Don't you mean C#? I believe that Ennis's Coyne set was pitched in C#, not C.

The Ennis recordings I have play back nearly perfectly in C, but maybe my ipod and cd players are off, or maybe the recording/playback engineer slowed them down?

[Cathy Wilde]

I was just playing along with a bit of the "Seamus & Bill" tapes yesterday and noticed that my D whistle pulled all the way out worked better than my C whistle, even pushed all the way in ... despite the vagaries of cheap whistle tuning and old recordings I concluded that Seamus's set was just slightly south of D (i.e., C sharp). (I'm so scientific aren't I?)

Anyway, I've been riding in the flat-set rodeo the last half-year and I 'd agree that your best bet is to listen to some flat sets by different makers and see where your ear takes you. Some people like alto voices, some people like bass voices. And for some people it's just the "personality" of the voice. In any case whoever you're playing with is going to have to adjust, so you may wind up playing alone more often than you do on your concert set.

In that situation you might as well LOVE the key/voice you're going to be spending so much time alone with!

[tommykleen]

To my ear, some C and C# sets can sound quite bright and loudish...grading into concert pitch territory. No, if you want flat, true flat, you've gotta start with B and work your way down.

[NicoMoreno]

Good man, Master Kleen.

That said, it depends on the pipes. I've heard B pipes that sounded way too "concertish" (wide bore) to me, and I tried a fantastic prototype narrow-bore D of Joe Kennedy's that I swear sounded like a B chanter.

Ennis' pipes seem closer to C than D, to me, at any rate not right at "C#". I had two Generation Cs that were not (yet) tunable that played almost perfectly with his pipes - so sharp of C, but flat of C#. Like most flat pitch pipes, they wouldn't have been tuned to any sort of A=440 or equal tempered scale.

[PJ]

Considering that Ennis's pipes underwent at least one significant rebuild (Brogan circa. 1905) and that early recordings had issues with play-back speed, much time could be devoted to speculating on whether the pipes are "modern" C, C# or something else.

[Cathy Wilde]

Like most flat pitch pipes, they wouldn't have been tuned to any sort of A=440 or equal tempered scale.

I was just thinking about that. Especially since A=435 was the standard between around 1855 to 1920ish, and, until the late 1960s, most peoples' access to advanced tuning technology was limited to a pitch-pipe or a tuning fork!

I would agree with the "south of D, north of C" assessment as well. C# might be putting too fine a point on it. But of course, that's only the recordings I have. Who knows where the tuning was on the Tuesday before?

THAT said, as far as preferences go, I seem to be happy in C and C# land. No real desire for anything profundo-er.

[NicoMoreno]

...Especially since A=435 was the standard between around 1855 to 1920ish...

That's not really clearly true, and at any rate seems to be fairly irrelevant (pipe makers don't seem to have had much of an inclination to worry about "classical" pitch standards).

[Cathy Wilde]

That was the recommended European standard in 1855 to my understanding ...

However, I totally agree with your point. I wouldn't be surprised if, to some makers, the sets were in "the key they 'wanted' to be." Tone came first, maybe, key followed?

But I imagine it was ultimately personal tonal preference, whether a maker's or a buyer's, much as it seems to be today.

[Cathy Wilde]

Speaking of good stout C# sets ... this is the set that made me fall in love with C#, or at least C# with tone like this. FWIW, it sounds sweeter and softer under your ear than in the recording ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N30WMRC-Vis

Michael told me this set's pretty much all he plays at home these days. I know why -- it's really rich, without being too honky, and has a lovely "presence." (It smells good, too )

[NicoMoreno]

That was the recommended European standard in 1855 to my understanding ...

Citation needed ( ) Also, recommended by who? And in which country? What I've read is that pitch standards were very different across the continent and the century (well from 1750-1950, really).

Michael's pipes are indeed very nice. Good flat pipes (regardless of pitch) are a joy to listen to (and play).

[Steampacket]

"THAT said, as far as preferences go, I seem to be happy in C and C# land. No real desire for anything profundo-er. Cathy Wilde.

Aye, I make do with my D set and playing at home I just like playing on a mellow C chanter with the set sans drones.

Michael Cooney has a nice sounding set and is a fine piper too