Fingering question on rolls

[MattMads]

I am working my way through the Clark workbook and have started lesson 11 concerning rolls. My question is this: on an A roll it is written as A (grace note b) A (grace note g) A. I understand how to grace note the B but do I need to close the A finger, finger the G and then quickly open the A finger or should I leave A finger open, finger the G and close it quickly? I guess I am having trouble understanding the correct form/fingering concepts for grace notes below the note being played. The same would go for an F# roll and working in an E between the two F's. Would I simply lift the bottom two fingers open while keeping the F open or close the F quick finger the E and then open the F again?
From the sounds of the recording none of the lower notes really seem to be played/heard to the true note. It sounds more like a blip.
Any ideas would be helpful. I don't want to develop any bad habits.
Matt

[KevinNot10]

It sounds to me like you are trying to learn piping ornaments from a whistle tutor. The idea is slightly different. In piping, you simply want to stop the sound for a moment.

When you are doing the tap part of your rolls on the pipes, you generally just close whatever fingers you happen to have off of the chanter at that moment. F# is probably the easiest to describe. Cut with the finger that you have been practicing with (left index, right index, or finger above are all valid choices) and then tap with your bottom ring finger.

The process is basically the same for all other rolls. If you have two fingers up (ie playing a G) then you can tap with both of them.

Hope this helps somewhat. Try looking for tutorials on YouTube. It is a lot easier to understand a roll by watching and listening, rather than reading.

[Uilliam]

I had this trouble when I started.It would be far better to call the roll in piping a tap and leave it at that.The roll as written is not what is being played by nearly all performers.If ye are a music reader or a classical player the sound as written in Heathers book is very different frae whit most o ye call a roll.

[uillmann]

I had this trouble when I started.It would be far better to call the roll in piping a tap and leave it at that.The roll as written is not what is being played by nearly all performers.If ye are a music reader or a classical player the sound as written in Heathers book is very different frae whit most o ye call a roll.

If you would also like trouble when you start, then follow Uilliam's advice and play a kind of roll, call it a tap, and leave it at that. I don't know what is written in the red pamphlet, nor can I describe someone's comprehension of "what is being played by nearly all performers," but there is no "the roll." There are many variations of the roll, including the short roll, the long roll, the graced triplet roll, the double cut roll, the triple cut roll, etc. If you must rely on printed material, try to find a copy of the excellent treatise "The Union Pipes - A Workbook" by Dennis Brooks, where the author gives detailed information on all of the myriad permutations involved.

[PJ]

Here's a link that might help - scroll down a little way in the page for a description of the various techniques, particularly the long roll and the short roll (you seem to be working on the long roll):

http://www.uilleannobsession.com/faq.html

As shown, the roll starts with the main note, followed by a grace note, followed by the main note again, followed by a short rest (not a grace note), followed by the main note again.

The "short rest" is the trick. It's really not a rest, so you don't want to stop the chanter entirely. Some people talk of "tapping" the tone hole (of the main note in the roll) with your finger, while others talk of "patting" the tone hole.

[Uilliam]

Uillman why the attack!!I thought ye had gotten over yersell a while back...seems not.Tis pity when ye pontificate or rail agin others ye get it so wrang ne'er mind I suppose I should ignore yoor quips....
This is frae yoor quoted Book by Denis Brooks although I could equally call it a Buff Pamphlet as ye refer to Heathers Book as a pamphlet....and as for yoor" there is no "the roll"... well read on ma little munchkin and ye might learn tae look afore ye leap..
Page 41


Instead of a pat I called it a tap thats the only difference.Everything else is as I said.Note that Dennis writes that nowadays the old way(my reference to classical) is largely replaced by a cut and pat.

By the way yoor joke on the EBay thread wiz hilarious...ye wee wag ye.Gosh Freedonia must be one hell of a fun place tae live.

[john]

forgive me for complicating things but as you progress you will be introduced to ways of playing rolls that allow for the tap/pat to be sounded as a note in it's own right - for now i think you should concentrate on getting the rolls as clean and clear as possible

as for whoever talked about all those other formulations of rolls please give more detail - you've made me curious

[Uilliam]

[quote="john"
as for whoever talked about all those other formulations of rolls please give more detail - you've made me curious[/quote]

That wiz Uillman I am sure he will obleege wid his myriads...
Myriad (Ancient Greek: μύριος, μυριάδες (myrios, plural myriades), "numberless countless, infinite", is a classical Greek word for the number 10,000. In modern English, the word refers to an unspecified large quantity.

Ye see the Dictionary on EBay could come in useful

Poor auld Matt ,I bet ye wish ye never bothered.Just stick wi it nice and easy it will come.Today it is called a long roll and a short roll.

[uillmann]

I believe there is much to be learned by studying "The Union Pipes - A Workbook." It must be left to individual forum members to compare the two volumes referenced in this thread, and decide for themselves which they find more informative, should they choose to do so. I stand corrected, and should have said there is no singular "The Roll" in piping, (the "The" implying "one") and, indeed, as Uilliam so clearly points out, there is an entire chapter in Mr. Brooks' book entitled exactly that, though I do not feel at liberty to post a photo of the rest of Mr. Brooks' chapter. In the future, I shall endeavor to be as grammatically precise as I can, so as not to befuddle those members of the forum for whom the English language might pose a difficulty.

[MattMads]

Thanks for the comments. This makes much more sense now.
Matt

[Uilliam]

John I thought so..well to save ye the suspense Dennis refers to the tight and open roll .On his opening intro.He then explains the long roll the broken long roll and the close roll.He also mentions a half roll that is a roll without a cut.That is it.
He gives an example of rolls using different notes.However that doesnae make for different rolls,just different notes.Certainly not myriads..

Uillman wrote..I shall endeavor to be as grammatically precise as I can, so as not to befuddle those members of the forum for whom the English language might pose a difficulty.

So having put that one tae bed perhaps my Shakespearean friend would care to look up Lallans...to save he the effort look ye here;
http://www.lallans.co.uk/
They took nae pains their speech to balance,
Or rules to gie;
But spak their thoughts in plain, braid lallans,


Before the Treaty of Union in 1707, Scots was the state language of Scotland used for all government business. Even after the Union, Scots continued in use by the Scottish courts for much of the 18th century.

I consider this continued attack on ma adopted tongue tae be RASCIST and as thus I wish tae complain to the Moderator.I have had just about enough of the mindless insults frae just one or two on this forum.If I make ane slur then I am deleted but it is OK for these others tae do so.Then I get publicly whipped for causing 99% of the trouble when in every instance it has come frae another quarter.
Enough is enough.
Role on independance.Freedom ,pass the blue woad please....
Angrily Yours
Uilliam

[uillmann]

For the record, your little munchkin of Freedonia bears no ill will toward the Fine Gentlemen and Gentlewomen of Scotland.

[pancelticpiper]

I guess I am having trouble understanding the correct form/fingering concepts for grace notes below the note being played.

These are called "pats" by pipers. There's no one single "correct" way of patting: there are several approaches, and the same piper might use two or three different ways willy-nilly.

Let's start with your A roll. You can use your usual A fingering x xxo xxxx and simply pat the one raised finger. This creates a momentary silence.

Or, you can finger A x xxo ooxx (or several other ways) so that when you pat the ring finger of your upper hand a G gracenote sounds. Depending on the context, say if the melody is rapidly alternating between A and F#, you could even finger A x xxo xoxx in which case the pat would create an F# gracenote.

Thing is, it really doesn't matter whether the pat is a silence, or a G, or an F#. It's the effect of breaking up the note that matters.

Some pipers do pats in a different way, using the basic x xxo xxxx and patting the one raised finger as usual, but they lift the chanter for a split-second during the pat so that the pat sounds as a Bottom D.

Using ordinary uilleann fingering, you'll see that the scale alternates between notes which have one finger raised and notes which have two fingers raised. E, G, and B are two-fnger notes and F#, A, C#, and Back D are one-finger notes. Some pipers pat both fingers on the two-finger notes E, G, and B (creating a silence, or a Bottom D if the chanter is momentarily raised) and some pipers pat one finger on those same notes (creating an audible gracenote). On the one-finger notes F#, A, C#, and Back D you get a silence if you pat the one raised finger, but an audible gracenote if you use a special open fingering for the note.

[billh]

In brief, the 'pat' which is notated as a (g) grace note in your Clarke reference will sound as a silence if the A is fingered 'closed', i.e. one finger A, and will sound as a very short g (actually more of a 'blip') if the A is fingered 'open'. These variants are referred to as "closed" and "open" rolls, respectively.

As a further variation, the chanter may be lifted briefly during the sounding of the otherwise-closed A roll, in which case the pat grace note is approximately a bottom d ('blop' rather than 'blip', if you will)

[Pipey]

I'll just keep working on the spicy tuna roll.