Reedmaking (beginner's question)

[mke_mick]

Hi, all:

I've tried to make two chanter reeds using Tim Britton's method (via book & video) and so far, both have the same problem: squawking like a goose and generally not behaving like a reed (i.e., not responding to different fingerings, changes in bag pressure, etc.).

Both reeds are well-sealed along the sides, and to my eye, very convincingly reed-like in appearance. Both crow reasonably easily when sucked, at a much lower pitch than either of my two known-good Patrick Sky chanter reeds (thank goodness for those!).

With the first one, I tried to fix the problem by sanding, sanding, and more sanding; I'm pretty sure it's way too thin now (and it still sounds like a turkey). With the second one, I've only gotten so far as beginning the first sanding subsequent to scraping the bark off of the V-shaped zone.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

--Mick

[rgouette]

63 views..no advice..
cmon' on reedmakers!

[an seanduine]

Describe the staple you are using.
This is in the area best addressed in face to face dialog.
However, passing over that: Your objection seems to be you find the timbre or tonal quality of the reed harsh or unacceptable.. How does the reed respond when put into your chanter? And, what maker for your chanter?
A little more information might elicit more (questionable since in is on the internet) advice/direction.

Bob

[fancypiper]

If the reed is flat overall, that's an indication that the reed is overscraped. In the reedmaking classes I took in '96-7, the attempted fix is to chop "2 spider's legs" off the lips.

Do you have the video "The Heart of the Instrument"? That gives you several approaches to reedmaking. If the Pat Sky reeds are satisfactory, I suggest using his specs as your starting point.

You will be surprised (after you make a couple of successful reeds) at how much better you like your own reeds than any made by anyone else. After all, who cares most about how your reeds sound than you?

[uilleannfinlander]

http://source.pipers.ie/Section.aspx?id=133

[mke_mick]

Thanks for the replies! Maybe this was like asking a medical forum "my middle is sore, what could it be?" -- though I'd hoped this was a specific, common beginners' problem -- so I'm grateful for any pointers anyone can offer (and have offered already).

Anyhow, my staples are made of 3/16" OD brass hobby tube, tapered & flattened on one end via mandrel and flared slightly on the other via reamer -- all per Tim Britton's method but fairly consistent with Pat Sky's also. My chanter is by Patrick Sky (based, I believe, on one by W. Rowsome).

So yes, Pat's reedmaking method would have been a more logical starting point, but Tim sells reedmaking tool/supply kits along with his method (whereas for Pat's you need to grind your own mandrels), so it seemed to me that if I could master Tim's method, I could later adjust his dimensions to better suit Pat's chanter. Given the very similar staple design, proper intonation would be the most likely problem using a Britton reed on a Sky chanter, right? (Though as I type that, it strikes me as a dangerous assumption, and obviously it's not working so far.)

My problem is not that the reeds sound 5 cents too high or too low, or that their timbre isn't sweet enough for my taste. The problem is that when I try it in my chanter, I can't play it -- I can pump air through it to produce a low turkey/goose-like sound, but I can't play a proper scale, not even a turkey-gobble scale.

Fancypiper, I'll try micro-trimming the tips -- thanks much! I'll also check out the NPU stuff.

Regards & thanks,
--Mick

[andymay]

OK my suggestions -

Your reeds are either

1.scraped far too much

2.Too open - you could maybe improve things with the bridle

3. the slip was too thin so it's effectively overscraped/sanded already.

Any help? I'd suggest closing the reed right down with the bridle and see if it starts to resemble a scale (albeit a weedy quiet one)

A

[fancypiper]

You don't need a whole lot of staples and I would think that Pat would make you some staples for a reasonable price. Then you don't really need to use a mandril unless you need to adjust the eye shape or the narrow diameter of the eye. I wouldn't think that would be needed with Pat's chanter and staples.

A tube of Arundo Donax will make up to 5 slips (asssuming a perfect tube), so once you have 4-5 staples, you should be set up for that chanter and have as many as 5 spare reeds. I usually quit when I got one working as I hate reed making, but it's the only way I could get my pipes playing in tune along with my low energy/endurance level. Since Naomi's Fancy disbanded, I am a solo piper (I love my 3 maker C set, Mark Hillmann bag/bellows, Seth Gallagher chanter and 2 regs unreeded, and Pat Sky drones) and play as my health permits.

Avoid thinning the centerline of the reed scrape too much, the geometry won't allow sounding the second octave and the crow will be nasty sounding. The sanding tube OD needs to be matched to the AD tube diameter so that when you finish sanding and scraping, the centerline must be thicker than the hinge (edge), so that the reed closes all the way across at the same time so that the reed creates a square wave. If the centerline is too thin or the hinge is too thick, it will leave a gap on the sides which will cause the crow to "squeel" just before it stops sounding. If the centerline is too thick, the reed will close on the hinge first leaving a leak in the middle of the reed lips.

Save some of these overscraped reeds for when you get started on regulators as you don't want them to jump the octave.

HTH

[mke_mick]

I forgot to mention that, also per Tim Britton's method, neither reed has a bridle (i.e., he claims they're unnecessary, though he does give basic instructions on their construction & use). When I get home later tonight, I'll try making & attaching bridles, and if that doesn't help, will commence to trimming the ends.

And also, probably, starting again from scratch. No doubt I simply need more practice in gouging, sanding, et al.

Thanks so much for all the pointers, guys!

--Mick

[an seanduine]

Really good and docile reeds have what Nederveen calls 'high conformance'. This means a very even scrape with a very even increase in flexibility as the scrape progresses from the heel of the scrape to the lips. This takes a steady hand coupled with a practised eye.
One thing a bridle does is to prevent random openings along the edge of the reed as it moves through various 'postures' at different frequencies. I've see Tim work, and he is very fast and has well over thirty years of experience making reeds in his method. The rest of us generally use bridles.

Bob

[patsky]

Mike,
Welcome to the frustrating world of reed making. I would suggest installing a bridle. Tim even says, in his book, you can use a bridle on his reeds. The bridle gives you much more control, If you are blowing your guts out to get a sound then the reed is too tough and open, A bridle should help.

Pat Sky

[mke_mick]

Sure enough, a bridle did the trick: I coaxed a full two-octave scale out of my second reed!

Albeit, a scale with some incredibly flat notes (including 1st-octave G !?), but I already knew that reed still needed some shaping/scraping. Now the real fun begins!

Thanks again to you all! The fresh ideas, encouragement, and of course the specific bridle-pointer, were just what I needed.

--Mick

[mke_mick]

One last footnote: homemade reed #4 is not only playable, but works very well, with a much easier-responding second octave than I'm used to. Woohoo!

So, I thought other beginning cane-whittlers out there might be interested to know how this reed differs from my previous attempts:

First, the bridle is my best so far: it conforms much better to the curvature of the reed than my previous attempts (obviously, that's easily fixed in those). The bridle seems to play a critical role.

Second, I sanded this reed *lots* less than the previous three; the ends of its lips are noticeably thicker. I'll see whether trimming the ends of the others helps any of them. (I may have misinterpreted Britton's advice in "My Method," to sand the blades down to "about the thickness of a fingernail" -- fingernails vary in thickness a *lot* )

Reed #4's main problem is an unstable back D (often perfectly in tune, but sometimes it "bumps" up or down in pitch). But since this is a brand new reed that otherwise works amazingly (to me) well, I'm going to resist the urge to mess with it, and see whether it simply settles in as I play it more. And to my amazement, I'm enjoying playing it very much!

Thanks again for the advice, guys!

[reedmasters]

Congratulations! Don't mess with perfection...... Yet!!!