Some thoughts on Piping and ornaments.

[patsky]

Fellow pipers,

Last weekend I had the chance to hear accordion player Paddy O’Brien at a house concert in Asheville, NC. His playing reminds me of Miko Russell, simple, sparse and virtually free of triplets, rolls, cuts etc. Listening to great player like Paddy, two facts describe his style…hard rock rhythm and sticking very close to the melody, not filling it with ornaments. With those two simple techniques the tune comes through strong and beautiful with lots of emotion. When Paddy does put in and occasional ornament it really means something and grabs our attention.

It seems to me that we piper could learn from that approach. While I have great admiration for many of the great pipers who have the genius fingers, I believe there is also room at the top for pipers who stick to the tune.

It is easy for pipers starting out to fall into the technique trap. Instead of simply playing the tune with accuracy and good rhythm many insist on trying to insert ornaments, that they haven’t mastered, into the tune causing a loss of rhythm and place, and many times turning the tune into a complete mess.

This brings up another point. The problem with the pipes is there is no volume control. I have always admired the fiddle because one can come to a session and very quietly noodle around and learn tunes by ear, during the session, done correctly no one notices. But the pipes, having only one volume, punch right through with all the mistakes and inabilities, many times just destroying everyone’s good time.

Yes…piping is a lonely business. In order to learn the pipes on must have a good barn or basement handy. Learn the tunes and rhythm accurately and you can’t go wrong.

All the best,
Pat Sky

[DarthWeasel]

I do think that sometimes less is more. Mick O'Brien in a workshop focused on finding the heart of the tune. There are some recordings I've heard where the tune was lost due to over oramentation. Being able to execute a wide variety of oraments in a tune can be impressive but should be done to enhance the tune and not to see how much stuff you can jam in. Some tunes on the other hand beg for some flare. It's a pretty subjective area, but that's my opinion anyway.

[Steve Turner]

I agree with this. I've always suggested that people should 'play within their means', ie, I would far rather hear them play a tune with good pace and expression, tasteful ornamentation and variations and in a way that lets the true nature of the tune come through, than hear them cramming it full of badly executed triplets, backstitches, crans all at the expense of rhythm and taste etc etc.

[Jeff Cullen]

Wow....it's funny Steve Turner would post. When I read the Patrick's post the first thing I thought of was the tasteful version of An Phis Fluich on Steve Turner's website. Every version I've heard since now sounds cluttered to me. It's like pipers have a contest to see how many ornaments they can fill the tune with, where Steve's version puts the melody at center stage with a few ornaments that nicely accent parts of the melody.

[fiddlerwill]

Couldn't agree more. Its a valuable lesson to listen to other instruments and the different possible approaches and incorperate what you like within your own style....

[Steve Turner]

Wow....it's funny Steve Turner would post. When I read the Patrick's post the first thing I thought of was the tasteful version of An Phis Fluich on Steve Turner's website. Every version I've heard since now sounds cluttered to me. It's like pipers have a contest to see how many ornaments they can fill the tune with, where Steve's version puts the melody at center stage with a few ornaments that nicely accent parts of the melody.

Thanks Jeff

[Pyper]

Playing the skeleton of a tune at sessions is much better, because they play too fast.
For a newish player it seems almost impossible to fit in any expression though ornamentation at a session.
When I play alone, I play at a good tempo, and can play the bipp bop boobity stuff. If I go too fast then even if I can put in all the double cut rolls back stitching crans and stuff it does not sound good to me. In highland piping the faster you go the less grace notes doublings and stuff. When a doubling is so fast that it becomes hard to tell from a single cut then why play that fast. There is good fast and bad fast. It takes awhile to tell the difference for many musicians. I think beginer sessions can be a bad learning experience if there is not anyone in control who can keep reasonable tempos.
I'am glad to have good people on the forum to learn from If only other people would take advice about listening to other players and practice too.

[fiddlerwill]

Personally I feel its a good idea to play without all the ornaments as a practice method and focus on phrasing in various different lyrical ways, as though you were singing the tune. Concentrate on making it sound good ,slow and relatively unornamented. Then slowly bring the ornaments back in. Obviously some cuts etc are essential for the rhythm. also take a particular part of a tune and experiment with different types of ornaments as well as just the plain notes.

[pancelticpiper]

The same thing struck me when I listened to Paddy Keenan play solo and compared it to when he's playing with a group: solo, no one alive perhaps is capable of more ornaments, more variation, than Paddy, but when he plays with others his playing is extremely clean and straightforward. Flawless timing and tuning. Being a 'team player' rather than a 'look at me!' approach.
Ditto hearing Jerry O Sullivan play with others.

[Pat Cannady]

It''s best to think of the use of rolls, cuts, staccato triplets, crans, etc as articulations, not as superfluous extras, but musically necessay parts of the tune. The real trick is knowing when to use them, and the best way to learn how to do that is through countless hours of listening to trad (and not just pipers, either!).

[eric]

> The real trick is knowing when to use them

Yeah, when I first started, I turned almost every 3 note combination (like GAG or GFG) into a roll because, well, rolls/ornaments were so unique and attractive. I was desperately noodling, figuring out how to get them in. Of course, I didn't understand the subtleties of the 3 notes I just bulldozed over. As time went on, and I got a better feel, the rhetorical question became: What am I *trying* to accomplish?

> rolls, cuts, staccato triplets, crans, etc as articulations

Yes, ornaments become the music. I agree you need to understand *what* you're trying to do in the music, and use an ornament to accomplish what you want... rhythm, lift, melody, texture... If we can get beyond the ornament for the sake of the ornament, we create a balance from which we can push and meld in different directions for musical effect... using/choosing ornaments and technique to create ebb and flow.

[Key_of_D]

I almost think this thread should be a sticky and it's because I wish more people would adhere to a lot of the things that have been said here. Something that bothers me most I think, is people getting ahead of themselves with their music/instrument. It makes no sense to rush one's learning by unplanned playing, (for lack of better words) that is, if you really care about how your music sounds. Trying to do something that you haven't taken the time to really learn and understand, I think, will inevitably show within your playing. I believe it was in a tutor that Sean Potts Jr said it best, something along the lines of, if you play a tune, even slowly, without alot of technique, and it's in time, (and in tune for that matter) it sounds good, and I truely believe this. I don't mean to suggest that everybody play just the barebones of the tune all the time, but rather that progess will come in time, afterall you can't learn the pipes in one night.

My neutral thoughts on filling the tune as much you can (however monotonous it may be, but again I feel that's up to the player) with technique are that as long as you are executing them cleanly and smartly, then at the least, it's better then throwing in a bunch of un mastered ornaments which usually make things like rhythm suffer. But I feel that this particular topic is that of a subjective nature, so I will comment no further.

Cheers,

[fiddlerwill]

Another thing, Its often said that ideally a musician sings through their instrument . IMO playing the tunes barebones allows one to connect with the melody and the voice, then the ornaments grow from this in a natural progression. Missing out this stage and adding ornaments befor the individuals voice is found can, I feel, lead to spiritless music, it can be all there physically, yet there is no real connection between the voice of the player and the voice of the instrument. Its just rote learning and mechanical repetition. copying other advanced players etc ..
IMO an essential stage in the growth of any good musician is to be truly connected with what is being said/played.
As in poetry recital, acting, singing, theater there are many who can master the external technique yet miss out on the fundamental depth of expression. the spirit and soul of the music is not there, its just physical technique.

By playing the pure melody and really getting inside the tune we can find that the ornaments spontaneously manifest from within the player and out through the instrument.
The fine and subtle control of each note develops into the fine and subtle control of phrase and then tune. Emotional content. True expression . This is where the soul of the music lies IMO, not in technical trickery and fast fingerwork.

[TheSilverSpear]

Huh??

[SteveShaw]

Huh??