Williams Sound Files Part II (2 more)

[Brazenkane]

I thought I would post these new files after the reed featured on sound file I posted earlier died. Even on that first clip, I was wary of the back d during playing. although it sounded good, it didn't physically feel as though it was rock solid. Actually, it didn’t so much die, as the back d became unplayable. I thought the premature death was due to finishing it too quickly..... ..Only the shadow knows!

As I tried to make new reeds, I started to notice the same anomalies over and over again. It was the same thing that I’ve noticed with other instruments I have reeded ( battled with) that have a narrow upper bore. I know Very little about bore profiles, but as I understand it… an upper bore that is too narrow can create and exacerbate back d issues.

With this particular instrument, I could not get a vibrant scale that had some poke to it and having the back d be strong and stable. The more vibrant, and easy playing I made the scale, the worse the back d got. This occurred every time with different staples, and with varying hardness of cane. Finally, what I ended up with is the reed you hear in these files.

Furthermore, I wanted to corroborate my findings with a couple of pipe makers who have encountered these chanters. One of them (who interacted with Dave on numerous occasions) informed me that this is generally what I can expect when reeding a Williams chanter. This maker owned a Williams chanter and had made hundreds of reeds for it. He too, had similar experiences regarding the relationships of resistance/volume/and stability of the back d/ lack of a hard D. Interestingly enough, I was informed that Dave was considering into changing his bore profile because he felt that his reads were not performing as efficiently as they could’ve been. Interesting.

Anyway so here they are:

Roaring Mary

( I thought the chanter was sounding kind of Keenan like i.e. no hard D, so I tried to play in that vein-stiff "reed making fingers" and all...)

http://www.box.net/shared/pgap6vuglm


The Bright May Morning
(...you might not know this one..)

http://www.box.net/shared/zngej5loo9

[billh]

It's a bit hard to tell when listening to playing at speed, but the 2nd octave sounds flat to me in those tracks. What happens if you open the reed a bit and/or insert the staple further into the reed seat?

In my experience the back d can react rather sensitively to octave tuning/head volume issues.

I would expect a slightly more open reed to strengthen the back d and sharpen it relative to the rest of the scale, while improving the hard d at the same time; especially if the more open reed allows you to scrape a bit more.

Never having measured a Williams bore, I would be very interested to know what, quantitatively, is meant by a "narrow upper bore" in this case.

best regards,

Bill

[PJ]

With this particular instrument, I could not get a vibrant scale that had some poke to it and having the back d be strong and stable. The more vibrant, and easy playing I made the scale, the worse the back d got. This occurred every time with different staples, and with varying hardness of cane. Finally, what I ended up with is the reed you hear in these files.

So what did you do differently with this reed? In other words, did you do something with this reed which may have compensated for the narrow upper bore?

[Brazenkane]

Here's what the 2nd octave is like. The A is in tune in both octaves (taking into account pressure etc.). However, there is a significant discrepancy with the Gs (being quite sharp in the 1st octave and quite flat in the 2nd) on this instrument. The Bright May tune really brings that out. The Gs could be really tweaking your ear. Check out the Roaring tune ... you may notice the effect not nearly as prevalent. (?)

[Brazenkane]

So what did you do differently with this reed? In other words, did you do something with this reed which may have compensated for the narrow upper bore?[/quote]


When I make reeds, I don't think in those terms because that's a much more complex modality than I'm clearly capable of!!

I have a general sound and feel in mind when I'm reed-making. I know a few things that could possibly bring me to that point. Take heed to the operative word in italics!

Thanks to a few customers, I've had the opportunity to experience a wide variety of instruments. even the instruments that were supposed to be "easy," always provide challenges. "Challenges" is a nice way of saying difficulties! Over the years, I've developed some skills that allow me to overcome some of the difficulties. Again, the operative word being "some." So, I guess they're all difficult....to one degree or another.

It's kind of like tattoos; even the ones that are supposed to "not hurt, " do!

[Brazenkane]

It's a bit hard to tell when listening to playing at speed, but the 2nd octave sounds flat to me in those tracks. What happens if you open the reed a bit and/or insert the staple further into the reed seat?


I would expect a slightly more open reed to strengthen the back d and sharpen it relative to the rest of the scale, while improving the hard d at the same time; especially if the more open reed allows you to scrape a bit more.


best regards,

Bill

Bill poses a very good question here. When the reed is opened, lets say by squeezing, indeed the back d does get sharper and stronger. Here lies the caveat and it's the "one thing comes into focus, another goes wayward." When that move is done, one would think simple tape would bring the back d back down to adjust to all of the other moves the notes made. Putting tape on the back d hole begins to have the desired affect when covering 1/64 of the hole. Any further acts as a weakening agent to the back d! This has happened with all the reeds I've made, which in my experience points to something awry in the bore (or not).

I recently spoke to a piper who informed me that he in the market years ago for a full set. The pipe maker he was talking to at the time (who wasn't taking orders at the time) recommended Dave, but said that the quality of the gear varied depending whom he was making the set for and that he would put the good word for him. I find all of this very interesting as we can trace artist searching and at the forefront of a possible transition.

We are only left w/wonderment to imagine which direction Dave might have taken.....

[danepiper]

The type of chanters which have a narrow upper bore are, as said before ,very difficult to reed . Especially the back-d.
In my old copy of Pat Sky´s book, he mention in the reedmaking sektion the finale step to get a good reed.
The point is to hold the reed horizontal and sand the end of the reedhead until you get a good result.
I have used this hint when I have problems with a weak back-d.

Open the reeds, so you have a stronger crow, then sand the end of reedhead.
You are moving material little by little ( moving material with a knife, can be a "fatefull "solution) when you sand the reed, there is more control.

A you sand the reed the lips will close a little. so you dont have to close the lips again, as you have oppen them first.

Ole

[leremarkable]

Bill, Kynch, et al.,
I too note a sharpening of the back D and second octave when opening the reed, either by moving the bridle skywards or by squeezing it. However, doing it always gives me a problem with the c sharp, ie, the c sharp will become flat, relatively speaking. Further scraping of the reed will further flatten the c sharp. I would insert the reed further into the chanter to sharpen the back D and second octave, but this may cause the bottom D to be flat, relative to the rest. Any thoughts?

David

[AlanB]

When the reed is opened, lets say by squeezing, indeed the back d does get sharper and stronger. Here lies the caveat and it's the "one thing comes into focus, another goes wayward."

I had a chat with Sam L recently about this matter. Unfortunately, the opening of the reed definitely sharpens back D, but it sharpens the 8ve too, and that's something that sometimes needs extra attention with Daves chanters. My suggestion is generally to look at redesigning the staple. Dave tended towards a wide reedhead with a shovel like appearance, but I do remember in the late 80s getting a couple of reeds from him that was by all accounts a slim and sexy thing, which worked well in my (non williams) chanter except for a wonky high e.

The wider head you make, the wider tube of cane you need and the bigger diam former you need to get the right curvature on the slip. This is tolerable with tubing staples, but with wide heads come problems, one of them being a sharp back D, also, they usually have to be close down heavily and this doesn't help matters.

I always found an 'over-squashed' staple taper would often flatten the higher notes of the upper 8ve, and also it stabilises back D too (whether this is due to the change in the staple volume or the way the head fits to the staple I know not), but is not really helpful as it brings in more problems. Getting everything in line is like herding cats....

But, you can achieve a similar result by making a staple that narrows more in the taper and results in a smaller eye, but this allows for a narrower head, giving you that tension and spring in the reed that you need, but controls the back D (flattens and hopefully steadies it) and also 'narrows' the 8ve tuning (flatter at high b, sharper at high e?), you then only need to focus the tuning by the depth it is inserted into the reedhead.

So, I reckon a good starting point would be a staple blank at about 54mm long, 14.3mm wide at the bottom and 13.7mm wide at the top (for a cane slip at about 12.5mm)... See what happens and adjust accordingly. In this case I'd probably form the eye on a mandrel that's about 3.5mm diam.,

The other answer, is, of course, to rush the staple......

[Brazenkane]

The reed is fully in the seat. Opening the reed naturally achieves the afore mentioned attributes, but does one simple thing that is not acceptable, and that is lowering the pitch (below A 440) in the 1st octave. Also, I made a narrower reed earlier worked very well....except...of course the back d.......

oh well...

[PJ]

I've had some success with battling the dreaded breaking back D by using a longer staple (55mm) inserted higher into the reed (23mm from the lips) for an overall length of the reed is 78mm. The width of the reed is also narrower (approx. 11.5 mm).

[billh]

Shortening the staple at the bottom end (hacksaw, files, etc.) may do the trick - possibly sharpening the 2nd octave in the process*, and/or the D, allowing you to let the reed close to some compromise value. If a slightly flat 1st octave was the primary problem with the proposed "fix", I'd feel I was closing in on a solution... provided the Cnatural doesn't decide to go AWOL.

If you are able, then, to pull the reed out in the reed seat a bit, you may also find that the Gs improve. What's the distance from the reed lips to the top of the reed seat, currently?

(P.S. - David, I don't find that opening the reed flattens my C# appreciably - that is, on my chanters - so perhaps that particular effect is chanter-dependent? Haven't spent enough time reeding Froments to know.)

* - shorter reeds generally mean sharper 2nd octave for me, but I am not sure whether it's overall length, or blade length, that is the biggest contributor; I've seen exceptions to the above rule of thumb which I don't fully understand...

[rorybbellows]

So heres the conclusive evidence ,you may wait ten years and pay three months pay for a set of top of the range pipes ,but at the end of the day how the pipes sound and behave is all dependent on two pieces of dried up grass.

RORY

[Brazenkane]

or 2 pcs. of wood,

...but yes! 100% dead on.