into the woods

[Antaine]

so I'll soon be taking the plunge and ordering a proper full-set. I've always liked the look of Rosewood over Blackwood, but I want to do this "right" and am currently leaning toward the blackwood set.

Sooooooo is there any particular reason to go with blackwood over rosewood? I've always thought that rosewood is a bit softer, so are there problems with chanters "deforming" over time and that sort of thing? I also understand that wood choice affects the sound, but while I've found much debate about exactly what the sound effects of those two woods are, I've not seen any outright complaints about rosewood (aw, it's crap, avoid it like the plague, etc).

Thoughts?

le buíochas,
A

[tansy]

and then there's Ebony, I have Ebony and Blackwood and like them both equally in different ways. I would buy used in Rosewood but would order new in Ebony or Blackwood.
But that's just me though.
Tansy

[PJ]

I've owned wide bore concert pitch chanters in rosewood, ABW and ebony, though not all at the same time. I would put the rosewood and ebony in the same category regarding the volume and tone in that they give a more mellow sound than ABW. In my opinion, ABW is brighter and also louder. Do you know what sort of sound you're looking for?

I've never heard of any warping issues with rosewood. It's frequently used for guitar necks so I imagine warping shouldn't be an issue.

[billh]

There are hundreds of "rosewoods" - I have at least 8 species on hand. ABW is in fact one of them. So this question is at best difficult to answer and at worst, mis-formed. Without knowing the species of rosewood in question, who could say?

Warping/etc. are mostly a matter of getting well seasoned wood (meaning, it must be seasoned for some time after purchase - timber dealers don't usually sell fully seasoned wood, at least not for our purposes). It also matters how the wood is treated during the making process - slowly coaxed into a chanter shape, in stages, is preferred.

Of the various rosewoods cocobolo has a reputation for being one of the most stable (and nastiest in terms of breathing the dust!). ABW can be very stable but top quality stuff is getting harder and harder to find.

[uillmann]

I am no expert on cocobolo, but have personally found a particular "cork-like" structure to some of it. It presents itself as pockets of spongy light colored areas in between the darker grain lines. I was never able to produce pipes with the stuff myself, as it made me sneeze for days, but I did repair work on pipes that came through the shop, and I was always gluing bits of the stuff back together on the most vulnerable of areas, i.e. tone holes, key blocks, key pad seats, etc. and I determined that I could never be a proponent of that particular timber. In addition, a good friend and well known flute maker from Virginia says he has had clients who are unable to play flutes made of it because they reported breaking out in a burning red rash around their lips. Blackwood is bright, yes. But dull reeds are easy to come by. Ebony is nice, but if you prefer dullness, maybe boxwood is your thing, and very trad. The best ABW I had came from PROSONO in Africa. First rate. I chose it for my pipes.

[Elmek]

I play a set from ebony which seems IMHO to have a softer sweeter sound to ABW sets but his may be due to the reeds
Another wood to think about is snakewood (-is it a rosewood ?-) very very spectacular and lives up to its name and recently saw two georgeous tree trunks oif the stuff at a makers workshop. Don't think many makers use it either because it is hard to get or is hard to work but imagine it would give a very bright sound.
Have also seen a set by a maker (Jon Allenson ?) in Lignum Vitae which dos not seem to be a very common wood for pipes

hundreds of "rosewoods" - I have at least 8 species on hand

Be interesting see what woods makers do keep in stock - just a favourite species or anything suitable they can lay there hands on

John

[billh]

In my experience ebony and boxwood have quite different tonal characters. Both are nice - I am preferring boxwood for concert pitch these days but that's a recent development on my part. My own efforts in 'faux' boxwoods have been disappointing, but the buxus sempervirus stuff sounds good to me. (Other makers have used faux 'boxwoods' to good effect, so it may depend a bit on the design, reeds, tooling, etc.) My impression, at least so far, is that the boxwood has more high harmonics and less "midrange" than either ebony or blackwood. Not sure I have an opinion as to ABW vs ebony yet, since I've only made two ABW chanters so far (both played well though, with a nice crackling tone; both were flat pitch BTW).

The cocobolo I've used seemed very solid and stable in the most part, but there were some smaller pieces that seemed to have weird pockets of inhomogeneity - in my case it was something like resin pockets. I think there's a lot of variability from log to log or perhaps harvest location to harvest location - pretty sure there is good stuff out there even if there is bad stuff around. I would avoid cocobolo for flutes as the lips are very sensitive to allergens and irritants. From what I have read, on the other hand, instances of contact dermatitis among players of non-mouth-blown cocobolo instruments are very rare. I wouldn't worry about that unless you have a history of skin allergies or have previously become sensitized to dalbergias through woodwork or blowing a rosewood flute. (Makers are another matter - it's reportedly quite easy to become sensitized to cocobolo from the exposure resulting from pipemaking).

Snakewood isn't a dalbergia. Andreas, who has used it a lot, reckons it's even nastier to work with than cocobolo but it sure is gorgeous. (I've got enough to make a couple of sets but so far no one has requested it.) It's one of the densest woods in the world and seems to be harder than ebony or blackwood, even; it can take a very bright finish. Big figured logs are very expensive and hard to season properly. For some people I reckon it would be the ultimate pipemaking timber (if you liked the effect of very hard, fine-grained timber) but it could be pretty pricey for top-quality material without checks or other defects. I used to own a snakewood set, FWIW. I reckon it was a bit louder and more assertive in tone than similar instruments by the same maker in ebony or other timbers.

Lignum and its close relative Palo Santo are reportedly really nice for pipes (ask Sam), but sadly guaiacum sp,. are now protected species and are difficult (or perhaps nearly impossible?) to import. Some places may have old supply on hand (I have enough for one set)...

Bill

[Antaine]

I have violin fittings that are snakewood. It looks real cool, but I wouldn't want pipes made of it (it's hard, but has a weird structure, I could see parts snapping as I actually had that issue with the tailpiece).

I'm going with BC Childress when I order the set. Of the pipes I've gotten to see and sometimes play with in person, his is by far my favorite, the only possible exception being Seth Gallagher's, 'though I would say I like them just as much, not necessarily more.

Bruce offers ABW and Rosewood as choices, with rosewood being slightly less expensive. I've never been crazy about boxwood.

[billh]

Yes, it makes more sense to have these conversations with the maker. Timber is one of the variables that interacts with a maker's style, the type of bore and reed used, etc. No point in asking the maker to use a timber which he doesn't like! In the end you have to look, listen, and decide what you like (from among the maker's own preferences).

[Antaine]

Oh, I had no intention of requesting a wood other than the two that are on his regular price list. He does them, apparently, in which ever of the two woods the buyer prefers...I was just wondering if there was anything in general that I should know about rosewood before I even start thinking about going down that road instead of ABW.

[PJ]

FWIW, I would choose ABW for concert pitch and rosewood for flat...

[Elmek]

is there any particular reason to go with blackwood over rosewood?

Well you don't have any choice do you as ABW is a Rosewood so the decision is do you go with Rosewood or do you go with emm....Rosewood.
Why does no one read the threads before posting as Bill has made this clear.
Perhaps the pipemaker concerned should be more specific as to what he is using as Pakistani Uilleann Pipes (apologies for mentning them) are also made from rosewood

John

[Marcelo Muttis]

I am no expert on cocobolo, but have personally found a particular "cork-like" structure to some of it. It presents itself as pockets of spongy light colored areas in between the darker grain lines..

That corky-like stuff is formed because the tree was cut out of the correct moon, I mean the correct lunar stage, I don´t remember now which is the correct stage to cut the trees, to avoid the spongy stuff. In the incorrect lunar stage some of the savia keeps in the tree more abundantly than in the other stage and produces some kind of alcohol and the n the mentioned stuff.