Lathe question for makers

[johnpipe108]

looks like some nice work there john, you you find a wood work lathe ample to do what you like, I work on a record CL0 lathe with a Record 4000 chuck, motor speed control from 0-2500rpm, I just love making pipes on it, its a pleasure to work with. all the best.

Wish I could have speed control on mine, it would be real useful with the 4-jaw chuck; however, the motor on the mini is 4-pole. If I really, really wanted to do something requiring slow speeds, it would be possible to replace the motor with something controllable, but I probably won't be going there. Just having a chuck with which I can do end-boring is a big help. Since I'm experimenting with Craig Fischer's square-bore technique, the lack of a metal lathe for reamer-making doesn't deter me.

regards, John

[Elmek]

So 71% for metal and 27% wood - and a missing 2%

Seems that the metal lathe owners have it

I guess from reading through that so long as the metal lathe has a good speed range then it is OK for woodturning.

John

[reedman]

John! you don't need a metal work lathe to make a good reamer you just need to know what you are doing.

The metal lathe owners may have it, it certainly dos not mean that the best pipes are made on them tho, its a pretty sad state of affairs when wood has to be turned on a metal work lathe, because a pipe maker has'nt got the confidence to turn the work on a woodwork lathe with the right tools thats made for the job, thats all I can say. all the best.

[giggleswicksam]

There's no inference here that the metal-lathe lot are using the compound slide to turn the woodwork. Most will use a tool rest and the same odd collection of hand-tools that the wood-lathe lot use. There is no disadvantage, except where the top speed is too low, to using a metal lathe that I can see.

One thing Bill pointed out to me that (I think) hasn't been mentioned - if you are turning square stuff into round stuff it is not a great idea to use a metal lathe with a gear (not belt) drive. Eventually will damage cogs I think cos of all the knocking.

I am shortly to have a crack at turning a long D reamer on an ML8 - I will report back when I know if it's easy enough.

I reckon the wood lot have lathes that lean towards metal lathes (engineering chuck, compound slide) and the metal lot have the least to do, just a tool rest to add to make theirs more "woody". Also metal lathe = more solid bed, less chatter.

[reedman]

Hi Sam, I have seen two or three pipemakers working with a metalwork lathe and they don't use a side rest, they use a cutting tool in the tool post, as I have mentioned before Sam were not making parts for NASA, were turning wood here, my converted Record CL0 woodturning lathe is more than sturdy enough for pipemaking, keep your tool sharp! no chafe I make my reamers from ground bar flat stock, ground up and stoned sharpened by hand, they cut enbony, like cutting through butter, no problem at all, you mention you work with a myford ML8, nice woodturning lathe they are , very nice, wish you well with your reamer venture. all the best.

[rorybbellows]

This looks like a nice lathe ,A 3in 1 so say the ad!!!


RORY

[marcpipes]

Really, I've gotten great results with a Delta midi lathe. I would still some day like a metal lathe for making tools, though.

[hpinson]

That yellow beast is a Shoptask Tripower (shoptask.com). It's a machine with huge potential, but a litany of problems out of the box. Good results are possible, but really expect to spend lots of time and dollars getting it into a useable state.

Here's lots of info:

http://www.the-alchemist.com/ and

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/i ... f-147.html

I almost acquired one, but knowing what I know now, I'm at least somewhat glad I did not. There's still a lot I like about it.

In its favor, the machine is really heavy (good). The new 32" length bed is nice (but 48" would be better). The cross-slide T slots are nice. One could do some fancy indexing with the mill lathe combination. The spindle bore is over an inch, which is good. Lathe RPM's are good at over 2000.

One thing to note-- the mill rpm is not really high enough for cleanly cutting wood, and you need to mod ($) it up with a much higher rpm motor and bearings to support the higher rpm.

More worrisome is that the QAQC on this machine is not so great. There are reports of Tri-Power cross-slide wobble and slop, vibration, and excessive chuck runout... all can be corrected but given the cost of the machine is now in the +4k word is that you can easily get into the 6-7K range before all is well.

The Chinese motors will need to be replaced before very long. This is not a variable speed lathe or mill (you mess with belts). VFD or DC conversion is desirable and quite possible for the lathe and mill but add several hundred for the parts.

Also, the Chinese tooling is pretty inadequate. You will probably want to replace the cheap included chucks, live centers, etc with something of higher quality.

Like when ordering pipes, take the quoted delivery date on this one with a grain of salt. There are regular reports of six month to yearly long waits on delivery. Positioning this heavy lathe in a shop is not trivial-- it is over 1000 pounds. Lots of people seem to hire a rigger for the task.

Reports of warranty service range from excellent to terrible, and apparently is a bit of a heated subject in itself. People either seem to love or hate Shoptask. Personally, Bob was very helpful when I called him with questions.

This machine seems a good base for a cnc project, but you are very much on your own... Documentation apparently is non-existant, but there is an enthusiastic community of Tri-Power CNC hackers.

So that's what I have learned about this machine, and I hope it is useful for anyone drooling over the Tri-Power like I was last year. I ended up with a Lathemaster 9x30, which is a $1200 sweet little lathe (Chinese, but decent QAQC by Bob at Lathemaster) and does most of what I need, with lots of improvements and mods possible, and an awesome little Sherline mill.

http://lathemaster.com
http://sherline.com

-- Harlow

[Elmek]

Would suspect that it would not be robust enough for pipe making and the makers I know would never go for such as small and cheap machine as it would not impress anyone who called at the shop



Have just followed the links and it is a lot smaller than it looks in Rory's post - I thought it was going to be huge

John

[hpinson]

You may be looking at an older version... the bed length has been expanded to 32" recently and at over 1000 pounds it's no lightweight, definitely in a different class than the Smithys and Harbor Freight 9x20 knockoffs. This machine has evolved a lot on 20 years of production. It seems to get a design improvement every three years or so, but there are associated problems with each major change.

I have to disagree with you though-- this machine is completely capable of making pipes and associated tools, once configured. See prior post for limitations though.

It's not in the class of a toolroom lathe, if that is what you are comparing it to, but is much less expensive (new). Even the excellent Taiwanese Hardinge knockoffs are in the 10-15k range. In the US, old Myfords in decent shape are very hard to come by. There is some decent old American Iron out there (Atlas, etc), but tricky to obtain sight unseen (ebay).

-- Harlow

[Elmek]

Sorry for misleading you Harlow but comments on the machine was a 'joke' hence the three smileys - I am sure makers would not buy a bright yellow monster just to impress the callers !

Would guess a few makers have looked at the possibility of cnc machining but do any actually use a cnc lathe for pipe making and how much of the work could be carried out with one ?

Note from the 'interview with Cillian O'Brian' that he uses two metal turning lathes

John

[hpinson]

Hi John. I remember seeing some reference that Davy Stephenson is doing some work with CNC, or is at least interested in it. I think most makers really want to emphasize the hand-made aspect, so maybe there is not a lot of interest... not that developing workable CNC G-Code is any less of a craft, or figuring out how to CNC a variable internal taper! CNC really seems more for scaleable production where you get reproducability at the percieived expense of a hand crafted instrument. However, I would not be surprised to see makers pushing the craft and learning what can be done using CNC. It seems a relativly unexplored area for UP makers, but I would guess the highland pipmakers are further along with their use of the craft. The cost for entry is also a barrier (time and equipment), though companies like Sherline are pushing the envelope of desktop CNC cost down to affordable levels. It's a facinating subject. Many lathes and mills are capable of conversion:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/index.php ... 95593c8f8b&

At the least most lathes can benefit from some simple and inexpensive automation like VFD variable speed AC control and DROs.

[Chris Bayley]

Hevia use a CNC lathe but they are also making Gaitas as well as Uilleann Pipes.

Did go to a course in cnc machining at the local college some years ago using lathes and mills - programing is straightforward and secondhand is always a possibility e.g. a Boxford ACL (Advanced Computer Lathe) lathe (11" swing x 20" between centres) on Ebay went for £510.00 today


There are as Harlow says some desk top machines and example being Denford's Orac one of which has just sold on Ebay for just just under £600.00. (not to me)

Just about OK for a D set and at a squeeze a C#



A Denford ORAC CNC Training Lathe. 4 inch (100mm) centre height, 15 3/4" (400mm) between centers. New in 1984, this machine has recently been overhauled and is now in first class, clean, fully working order. I can demonstrate it to the successful bidder. Single phase, 240 V electrics, complete with maintenance and programming manual, chuck key, revolving centre, a small stock of tapes and the original audio instruction tape. It has had very little use, having spent most of its life in a materials lab at a technical college. Weighing in at 140kg (310 lbs), this is a minimum 3 man lift, although it will fit in the back of a large estate car or a van.

I can recommend this machine to serious model makers or to anyone who wants to get acquainted with programming CNC machines in Denford "G Code".

N.B. There is no software with this machine; it doesn't need it. There is a hard coded "operational program" that allows you to write your own programs to make components. These can be saved onto tapes and reloaded.

[Elmek]

Is the Orac really solid enough to turn out a set of pipes as it looks like an expensive toy

John

[billh]

IMO the CNC lathe's main utility for us would be in toolmaking. Most affordable CNC lathes tend to be small-ish, and while they could be used to turn outside stuff including key blocks and mounts, there are some issues; for instance, you'd need a CNC mill or expensive CNC combo machine to automate the process of milling slots and milling away the sides of the blocks, which is where most of the time goes.

Also, because of the way CNC tooling/machining works, and the way the tool approaches the work, you don't get as good a surface finish as you can with hand turning techniques on a toolrest. I reckon that without very careful custom cutter making, CNC-made mounts might look a bit rough under close inspection.

I reckon that where CNC shines is in three aspects; one, the ability to make lots of interchangeable/"identical" parts - that aspect has some attraction for making pipe parts. Second, CNC allows (with careful setup, calibration, and correction) making very precise forms with less tedium than hand-machining - so much of the tedium of reamer making could be avoided (in exchange for the tedium of calibration and setup of the CNC, since the long thin tapers are going to present the same sorts of problems for CNC as they do for hand machining).

Lastly, since CNC can work, in theory, unattended (caution!), it allows you to go as slow/light as one wishes when doing some onerous task like milling a reamer flat, etc. - but again, that's the job of a CNC mill, not a CNC lathe... In practice it's probably unwise to leave the machine totally unattended - it would allow for a more relaxed wait however. Because the CNC can be programmed to take very light cuts, and one often wants to use multiple short reamer sections anyway, even a small-ish CNC lathe might be useful.

Bill