So, Ennis...educate me.

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
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billh
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Post by billh »

it's a pity that everyone seems to be so defensive and/or aggressive about this.

I thought that Eric was on to some very key points below - not just about the clips in question, but key issues for Irish Traditional Music aka "pure drop" or whatever-you-please-sir.

One of the things that about traditional Irish piping that IMO differs from both contemporary popular and art music is the fact that it is not, at its core, harmonic. That is not to say that it contains no harmonies, but in fact is a much more significant observation about the "motive force" of the music which shapes the tunes themselves.

It is also different rhythmically from classical or pop/rock music, which I think has to do with a dual heritage in particular types of dances and at the same time in song. If a jig sounds neither as if it is being danced to nor sung, there's something terribly wrong with it - I reckon it should sound like both.

The issues Eric raised below speak to both the "phrasing" and the "ornamentation" points, which I think go hand in hand.

Unfortunately, this real question which seems to be a variant of "what's the big deal about Ennis", as representative of a larger topic, puts McSherry's playing in the context of a negative comparison. While I, too, expect McSherry does not even privately consider himself in a musical class with Ennis, some readers are taking this as an assault on their personal tastes. I think the assault is a gentle one, i.e. "if you have to ask, try listening more."

I differ with the statement that we should be worrying more "about how good our own piping is" - frankly I think that practicing without studying the greats, particularly of the past - no matter what our level of competency - is misdirected effort in the context of traditional music. As a rule of thumb I suppose one should listen studiously at least as much as one practices/plays. And of course it makes a big difference who you listen to.

As for the original question, i.e. "please explain Ennis is doing that is so wonderful" (or substitute any of the revered older players), I am afraid we're well and truly in the realm of aesthetics. IMO very little about art or aesthetics can fruitfully be discussed analytically, or explained, except among a group of people immersed and for long years in the art in question. Even then it's pretty difficult.

What is art, indeed! You know it when you see it - depending on how you look. Maybe someone needs to write "Ways of Hearing" to go with "Ways of Seeing"...

Bill
eric wrote:
For me, the McSherry clip does not have the measured dignity present in Ennis. It does not contain the same level of thoughtfulness in construction of phrases, ornaments, and tone. McSherry appears to add ornaments out of habit, and as such, puts ornaments in places more effective in dance music.

McSherry's phrasing moves from accented note to accented note, or from ornament to ornament, rather than glueing together shorter phrases as you'd hear in sean nos singers. When that glue is lost, the aesthetic that built the phrases is also lost. The notes lose their value; all that's left is to move from accented note to accented note to try to find interest and meaning.

McSherry's phrasing may be influenced by the accompaniment-- in other words, the phrases become more about lengthening notes to create texture with the harmony, rather than playing with internal stresses and ideas within the melody itself. It's a different aesthetic. For me, the result is less interesting.

> Liam O'Flynn seemed to think pretty highly of Ennis

There is no question here: O'Flynn holds Ennis in the highest regard. And why stop with him? Ask all the top traditional pipers their opinion of Ennis.

> Isn't McSherry just a much better piper than Ennis?

Alas, no. But there's nothing wrong with saying McSherry appeals to you more. Ennis works on a whole different level; it is a highly complicated, highly developed level, and intrinsically integrated with the complete traditional aesthetic.
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canpiper
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Post by canpiper »

That makes a pile of thoughtful sense Bill.
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billh
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Post by billh »

canpiper wrote:...

So is there a consensus about this? Are the standards of irish trad (and uilleann piping in particular), internally defined? If so, is it possible that the reason why some modern players - like McSherry, Cillian Vallely, or even Davey Spillane - are "more accessible" to beginers/outsiders, is because they are incorporating external musical features into their playing?
I wouldn't so much say "internally defined", since traditional music is always incorporating influences from "outside". The way in which those influences are incorporated, e.g. with sensitivity and affinity for the existing tradition, seems to make a big difference. People who do this from a firm base inside the tradition can be the real innovators of the traditional and invigorate it. But again we begin to talk of indescribable things!

Some outside changes/influences may enrich and complement existing strengths within a tradition, whereas others may undermine or oppose those strengths or core characteristics. (The 'debates' about rhythm sections in various guises seems to be about this latter prospect, true or false.)

What I mean is, if I think that, say, Ennis' tempo is all over the place, and that's because I'm applying an external musical standard (western classical, say), but in reality, his tempo is, as DJM or sturob suggests, correct for Irish music, then if I think McSherry's tempo is good, is that because I'm finding that external standard incorporated into McSherry's playing? McSherry is no doubt influenced by Ennis (as I understand it, everyone is), but he is probably also influenced by all kinds of other musical forms (and to a greater degree than Ennis would have been), and whether he's conscious of it or not, those are probably finding there way into his playing as well. So the way he pitches his pipes, phrases, and interprets music, etc., etc., is going to be a product of influences external to irish trad, influences that would not have been impacting Ennis.
Again, not sure I agree with the 'inside'/'outside' dualism so much, except to the degree that your own musical experiences are making one performance more accessible than another. I think a lot of people may be saying, in effect "I don't like it" before they can claim to understand it. While everyone's entitled to their own aesthetic, in the context of a tradition-based practice like Irish piping, it makes sense to attempt to understand before coming down on one side or the other. That can take a long time!
... I have always assumed that these changes in higland piping were a result of external influences - standards from other forms of music finding there way into highland piping.

Might that be happening with Irish piping as well? Is that why concert pitched sets have gained prominence over flat sets? If so, then in what sense are the standards really internal to Irish piping?
The boundaries are permeable, as they should be. There is no "standard" as such, except that set for generations by the people that played, and play, the music.

The degree to which a musician is able to grow/innovate constructively, as opposed to just playing things in an inappropriate style, may be a matter of the deepness of his or her musical "roots", as it were. And by that, I don't mean bloodlines! You have to understand "what came before" in order to know whether a contemporary trend makes sense within the tradition or is more peripheral/tangential.

Bill

p.s. - I feel I must make my disclaimer that I have no pedigree, musical or otherwise, to justify any authority on these topics. Just loads of time and love for the music "as I understand it". ATB
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canpiper
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Post by canpiper »

billh wrote: p.s. - I feel I must make my disclaimer that I have no pedigree, musical or otherwise, to justify any authority on these topics. Just loads of time and love for the music "as I understand it". ATB
What other pedigree could one want? Thanks again Bill.
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Post by sturob »

As regards the tempo issue . . .

I have to admit that when I listen to Ennis I don't hear what you're saying is a tempo that's all over the place. Allow me to explain.

I think there are a lot of people who think that one of the Pillars of Irish Music, to borrow an image from Islam, is rhythm. That's absolutely correct. But, semantic here, I'd have to say that the pulse is religious, not the tempo.

Uilleann pipes, being pipes, are never going to be able to accentuate notes via volume. Of course, we can all accept that; I'm talking about chanter work ex vacuo. Very musical players stretch out certain notes to highlight them, or to give a little meat to the pulse. A lot of people hold out notes before various gracing movements, for example. I think that learning how to express yourself with a combination of execution (off the knee? on the knee? etc.) plus gracing, plus a teensy dash of rubato is incredibly more elegant than, say, relying on loudness to accent. It's also a completely different idea.

Is that getting too far from what you're talking about, canpiper?

One of my all time favorite sets of Ennis is the one in which he plays the Silver Spear and a couple of other tunes. Genius. And the regs! He leaves you wanting more. Each time I hear it I feel like I'm noticing something a little different he's doing.

Maybe it is a religion.

Stuart
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canpiper
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Post by canpiper »

sturob wrote:As regards the tempo issue . . .

I have to admit that when I listen to Ennis I don't hear what you're saying is a tempo that's all over the place. Allow me to explain.

Uilleann pipes, being pipes, are never going to be able to accentuate notes via volume. Of course, we can all accept that; I'm talking about chanter work ex vacuo. Very musical players stretch out certain notes to highlight them, or to give a little meat to the pulse. A lot of people hold out notes before various gracing movements, for example....

Is that getting too far from what you're talking about, canpiper?

Stuart
I was actually thinking about tempo in the ordinary sense. I'm a highland piper, and so I appreciate the need to rely on graceing and agogic expression in the UP's.
sturob wrote: One of my all time favorite sets of Ennis is the one in which he plays the Silver Spear and a couple of other tunes. Genius. And the regs! He leaves you wanting more. Each time I hear it I feel like I'm noticing something a little different he's doing.

Maybe it is a religion.

Stuart
I do find that Ennis' reg playing is pretty impressive, and that it adds a lot to his playing. That is also one thing i do find lacking in some of the contemporary uilleann piping I've heard - good reg playing!
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Micho Russell

Post by cocusflute »

In the early eighties a young American tin whistle player told me that she didn't know why people thought so much of Micho Russell. He has no ornamentation, she said, and his music is so slow. I was at a loss for words. I didn't know how to tell her what to listen for that made Micho special. It would just sound like wordy bull sh*t. Peter L. apparently felt the same way in this thread.
I told her that it's a lot easier to be critical than it is to be appreciative. If you try to be appreciative you learn a lot more and have more fun than if you are critical. The old guys are for the most part appreciative rather than critical and we love them for it.
Canpiper is trying to be appreciative. It isn't always easy to appreciate the old guys- Mike Rafferty, Kevin Henry, Paddy Canny, Seamus Ennis, and even Tommy Peoples. Some music isn't always immediately accessible. But in the end it's worth it. It makes you a better listener by stretching you, and by becoming a better listener you become a better player.
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Re: Micho Russell

Post by Eldarion »

cocusflute wrote: I told her that it's a lot easier to be critical than it is to be appreciative. If you try to be appreciative you learn a lot more and have more fun than if you are critical.
Hehe I do agree with the gist of your post. But the problem with this argument is that its the same argument people who really play badly use to justify their music.
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Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

djm wrote:Please go back and start listening to as many old recordings of ITM by masters (on any instrument) you can come across. Everything that strikes you as wrong or out of place in those recordings is what is correct for ITM.
Image

The regulator playing at about the fourth time through of the Bucks is almost impossible to pull off, if you simply want to be impressed. I don't hear anyone now even trying to emulate stuff like that, it's far too difficult and risky!

Ennis apparently refused to play the pipes for dancers, his music was for listening not dancing - something that was said about various pipers in the old days, too. That might explain why people are bothered by his shifting tempos, or the effect his ornamentation has on the rhythm - certain ornaments he did like the "shiver" trill or the ABC triplet (which you hear in the opening of the Bucks) sound like stuff that would trip up a dancer. I think he was very solid rhythmically anyway, when all is said and done.
Definitely buy the Mitchell/O'Brien-Moran book when it's out.
Didn't care much for Seamus at first either. The older records won me over, the 70's stuff can be much more dodgy and they're recorded a bit harshly too.
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Post by djm »

Yes, when will those bloody books be published? Has anyone heard? There's probably a lifetime of studying in them, and all these delays are cutting into the few years I have left. :x

djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
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oliver
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Post by oliver »

canpiper wrote: Are the standards of irish trad (and uilleann piping in particular), internally defined? If so, is it possible that the reason why some modern players - like McSherry, Cillian Vallely, or even Davey Spillane - are "more accessible" to beginers/outsiders, is because they are incorporating external musical features into their playing?
They're not adding anything, they're losing something, especially what makes the whole thing so interesting. Let's just add that if you think all is immediately accessible in McSherry's music and not in Ennis', it means that Ennis' is more interesting and there's more to it than what you can understand if you lack the experience.
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Post by patsky »

OK!!! I have to put in my 2 cents.

To me Seamus Ennis is the Marlon Brando of piping. All you have to do is look at films and ham acting before Marlon Brando and then acting after Brando. Brando’s natural style of realistic acting was an atomic bomb thrown into the universe of acting and is still with us today.

Pull out some old piping recordings of Touhey, Tom Ennis, Pat Fitzpatrick, Rowsome and any other piper before and during Ennis’ time, and you will hear a distinct lack of many of the techniques that we take for granted. The reverse crann, the ghost D, staccato runs, etc. that we use today were invented by Ennis. He set the standard with the”Bucks of Oranmore”, Miss Monahagn, on "4o years of Irish Piping".

I remember talking to Tommy Reck( who was no slouch himself) about the piping scene in the 40s and 50s and he told me that Seamus Ennis was on a level all by himself for years. True… there are pipers today that are technically as proficient as Ennis….but they are standing on the Masters shoulders.

Finally want to say something about recording. All of Ennis’ recordings were done live which would naturally include mistakes. With today’s recording techniques, most recordings involve, compression, overdubbing, pitch correction and editing to eliminate mistakes. This produces very clean recordings indeed. But this type of recording takes away a lot of the musicality and feeling. That is why I love Bob Dylan’s one take recordings they are dog ruff and full of emotion and feeling.


All the best,
Pat Sky
Pipes, Reeds and free information on my website: http://www.patricksky.com
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Post by Chadd »

billh wrote:Maybe someone needs to write "Ways of Hearing" to go with "Ways of Seeing"...
I highly recommend W. A. Mathieu's "The Listening Book" to anyone who makes music.
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Post by TnWhistler »

patsky wrote: there are pipers today that are technically as proficient as Ennis….but they are standing on the Masters shoulders.
All the best,
Pat Sky
I had a similar discussion with someone over Earl Scruggs on the 5 string banjo. As long as he is the industry standard, the one by whom all others are compared, no one can ever be greater, as proficient maybe, but never better. Of course Scruggs invented the style all bluegrassers play now. He is KING!

As for pipers, I heard as recording of Leo Rowesome playing My Darling Asleep. It sounded like he recorded it playing a ray gun. The sound in those days was horrible. But these were the pioneers. I agree with Pat, and I also love listening to McSherry, Vallely, etc. as well as Ennis, Rowesme, etc.

Timmy
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billh
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Post by billh »

TnWhistler wrote: As for pipers, I heard as recording of Leo Rowesome playing My Darling Asleep. It sounded like he recorded it playing a ray gun.
That's not a ray gun, that's something even more deadly.... a double chanter!

:lol:

i.e. the distorted sound you heard was intentional
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