When to use a wire rush?

[tompipes]

It is not a permanent alteration to your chanter or reed.

Fair point Alan, but I still think it odd that a maker would give you a newly made chanter with the rush in place. Is Froment using this as a device to fine tune tuning, tone and pitch. Can this not be done with an alternate bore design?

For instance the Chieftans play sharp o 440

Yip, 447 actually

You've never seen a flat piper and an accordeon player play together?

They'll chance their arm with concertina players though


Tommy

[Tony]

I suppose a lot has to do with YOUR perspective of the whole thing...

If Froment's chanters are based on a design that is sharp -or- already has a need for a rush -or- has certain tuning issues (yes Uilliam, bad design) It appears (to me) at some point in his pipemaking career, rather than re-design the bore, Froment decided to make a rush standard.

It's there. So be it. That's what he is offering... get over it. Does it detract from the quality and workmanship of this pipes? Judging from his wait list... No.

[Cayden]

A student of mine has a new half set that came with a rushed, or more correctly: wired, chanter.

Some maintain Leo Rowsome chanters were designed to be rushed down. I don't know, they certain seem to want to. Call me old fashioned but I would not at all at all like paying a big load of money only to get a chanter with a guitar string superglued to it's insides.

Oddly enough, most box players are unwilling to retuning for a sinlge session.

On the other hand I have played with Josephine Marsh sticking to the C row on her B/C box or had Jackie Daly bringing in a box to play in C (or play in C on a concertina that happened to be on the table). The point of the comment being ofcourse playing a flat set has nothing to do with the A=440 issue

[tompipes]

I suppose a lot has to do with YOUR perspective of the whole thing...

If Froment's chanters are based on a design that is sharp -or- already has a need for a rush -or- has certain tuning issues (yes Uilliam, bad design) It appears (to me) at some point in his pipemaking career, rather than re-design the bore, Froment decided to make a rush standard.

It's there. So be it. That's what he is offering... get over it. Does it detract from the quality and workmanship of this pipes? Judging from his wait list... No.

Tony,
You've made a very fair and reasonable point. When we get to this level of pipe making skills, it is down to personal taste.

You may be right in saying that at some point Alain may have said, "feck it. I'm close enough, an auld rush will do the trick" But some how I don't think thats the case. Or maybe I don't want to believe thats the case.

I think the rush option is a handy quick fix to a tuning issue but I don't believe that it should come as a standard fixture to a brand new chanter. It's like buying a new car and getting a free can of WD40 for when the engine won't start.
What happens when the chanter goes sharper. Another rush? Your bottom D will go to hell then. Thats no good.

Alain is a fine craftsman, engineer and instrument maker. His flat sets are superb and his concert drones and regulators are excellent too, in my opinion. I just don't like his D chanters and the rush deal is part of that.

I suppose I just have to get over that. Ah, no I don't, I just don't want one....

Mind you, take a look out there and see the amount of pipers with Alains D set with other makers chanters, theres a good few in Ireland.

Tommy

[Uilliam]

Forgive me, I didn't think my statements would have to hold up to magisterial level scrutiny, I thought we were having a conversation, not a trial. Relax already.

Also I am not aware of anyone having to play with anyone else. Ye don't have to do anything.

I do play with others. If you don't, then you don't have to worry about being in tune with other musicians. Many other pipers do and have, including the pipers in the great old ceili bands. They all came to their own solutions to pitch. It is reasonable to assume that we have to agree on one pitch level, A=440 is as convinient as any.

So far as I can tell, Paddy Maloney plays concert D sets not flat sets on stage. I didn't say anything about them not being able to heard, or having trouble tuning. Nowadays, you can mike just about anything to audible levels. The concert pitch set evolved for great volume, before the days of amplification.

Rushing could be a deliberate choice of a given builder. I did say it was a good choice. If I received a brand new chanter that needed to be rushed to work from the maker... without previous knowledge of it, you can be damned sure I'd take it up with the maker. IS that clear enough???

Chad ye are not as clear as ye seem to think .....
It was yersel that DID say "The real reason that we care about getting a chanter to spot on A 440 is that we have to play with other musicians who can't tune to us, (like those damned accordions ) and be to heard on stage. Otherwise we might still be playing flat sets".....

and what is the comment about Paddy playing concert sets and not flat ones got to do wi anything??

"Rushing could be a deliberate choice of a given builder. I did say it was a good choice." What is that supposed to mean??

"including the pipers in the great old ceili bands" OK, elaborate, how many pipers played with accordions was my point .

"I do play with others." then ye should know that it is possible for them to tune to your pipes if they haven't got a fixed pitch instrument which was my point about mentioning the Chieftains.

Ye seem to be taking this awefully personally but ye should remember that by posting to this board in the first place then ye are inviting comment back good bad or indifferent,as for this being a trial ,I think not.If I was having a conversation wi ye then I would be saying exactly the same to your face .. trouble is we can't see each other whilst typing awa so the facial expressions can't help wi the dialogue.So to help ye out a wee bit here is mine

And please don't take any of this to heart,how feckin important is it anyway..?

Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

PS..Tony..I didnae actually
write "Bad Design"
in the world of litigation and sensitive souls then precise terminology is important..I wrote "Once in a while maybe OK... but as a basic design "
how ye interpret that is entirely your own business.Oh and the sky is blue...

[Hans-Joerg]

Wood unlike delrin (bronce or "trumpet gold") is not a homogenic material but has an individual grain (like your fingerprints). Consequently, even when the same reamer has been used, there are (normally) no two chanters by the same maker who perform exactly the same. Many makers use "mother reeds" : When the chanter performs exactly the same (without even the slightest reed-adjustment), it is only then that the maker knows that the chanter´s new copy is "sucsessful". The "exactly-same-performance" (talking of very slight differences, mind you) can best be achieved by a thin wire rush that is sanded at particular parts. It is temporal and can be taken out again (of a new and still changing chanter). Permanent changes to the bore (especially to new and still in the next months shrinking) chanters are not so advisable. Apart from that wood keeps changing (with years less though) all the time.
Cheers,
Hans

[BZH29]

Hello !

I think it's much ado for nothing , because , IMHO , the main point is that Alain chanters be good , rush or no rush.......

Because many of you seems to know about pipemaking , perhaps would it be better to tell some pipemakers how to make good chanters than to wonder why one of the best pipemaker use a wire in his chanters .

I like to heard the C Froment chanter with a wire from David Power and the Bb and B Froment chanters also with wire from Mick O'Brien.... don't you ?

I'm ok to buy any chanter from Alain if the owner don't want anymore because there is a rush in it ...

[Tony]

....PS..Tony..I didnae actually write "Bad Design"
in the world of litigation and sensitive souls then precise terminology is important..I wrote "Once in a while maybe OK... but as a basic design "
how ye interpret that is entirely your own business.Oh and the sky is blue...

That's right Uilliam, you didn't say it. I did.
Did you make an implication? That's not so important.


In the world of piping (at some level) isn't it understood that all pipes are a bad design? Isn't that is why so many makers are TRYING to perfect them. They each start with someone elses work and have their own path to alter bores, chanter lengths, tonehole locations and sizes.

There is one camp who says: A hole is a hole. It must be round and the edges must be straight.
There is another camp who deliberately make oval shaped toneholes with odd angled undercuts.
That should indicate pipes aren't perfected and there isn't one path to follow.

Is the wire to cure bore/design issue a reeding issue?
Do Froment owners automatically make their own reeds or go out and get someone else to make reeds for them?
If so, are they able to remove the wire with someone elses reeds?

[Joseph E. Smith]

Hello !

I think it's much ado for nothing , because , IMHO , the main point is that Alain chanters be good , rush or no rush.......

Perhaps it is nothing, but you have to admit that at the going rate (and turn around time) for this maker's work, there will be questions regarding a rush in the chanter that is considered standard.

It is only fair that these questions are brought up and discussed, regardless of the ideaology behind them.

[BZH29]

It is only fair that these questions are brought up and discussed, regardless of the ideaology behind them.

I know that , Joseph ; no problem !

[Lorenzo]

With the Froment B set I owned, the chanter and the three regs were prewired (stainless steel rushes), but all four of these were meant to be disabled if you didn't need or want them. The three reg rushes were threaded and screwed into the tuning pins. The tuning pins had permanent stainless extentions that came up and ended pretty close to the first tuning hole. Instead of tying the full leangth rush to it, it screwed on. The outer pin itself also had an adjustment screw so that you could push the pin all the way up and have it stop at any certain setting. Pretty innovative really.

I never used the chanter rush (it wasn't needed), but I think reg rushes are pretty standard. It seems reasonable to think that as much tape and putty as we see on chanters...a rush is merely intended as an extra attachment by the maker -- to use or not to use as the player prefers.

[reedman]

As far as I'm concerned, a lot of the early 14" 1/4 inch concert chanters play sharp of 440mhz, the chanters with their sets play fine, when played by them selves at their given pitch, the problems starts when you come to play with other instruments, the rush is probably there to alter the second octave when lowering the pitch with lifting the reed when you want to play with other players at true 440mhz, if the chanters true pitch is sharp of 440mhz, say 442-443mhz then you have a problem,best to play the chanter at its true given pitch with the oringinal set, and buy an other chanter that plays true at 440mhz for playing with other instruments, but if the rush is there to alter certain notes only then as far as I'm concerned the chanter is faulty . all the best.

[Tony]

With the Froment B set I owned, the chanter and the three regs were prewired...... I never used the chanter rush (it wasn't needed).....

OK, I'll rephrase an earlier question.

Does any one have, or know of someone who has a Froment D chanter that was reeded by someone else, where they are able to play A=440 (and be in-tune) without the wire rush and not have any quirks or tuning problems?

Do they want to tune above 440?

Is it a bore thing or a reed thing...
Meaning: Can Froment D chanters be re-reeded to play well without the rush?

[reedman]

Great question Tony , as far as I've stated, I'm standing by what I have said, concerning any new Chanter that comes from any "pipe maker" with a rush up its bore, its a totally different disussion if the chanter has come from some one trying to reed a chanter unsuccessfully. aall tthhee bbeesstt.

[billh]

... if the chanters true pitch is sharp of 440mhz, say 442-443mhz then you have a problem.

If your chanter is playing at 442 megahertz then I agree that you have a problem.
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