Brian McNamara has a nice teaching style, one which includes his thoughts on tune interpretation and tune phrasing. He takes a pretty in deph look at the music and how to express its melody, rather than just simply playing the notes. Patrick Hutchinson is another tremendous teacher who follows a similar path of instruction, and one can certainly feel the influence of the great Chris Langan in Patrick's methods. Move them fingers man!
If any of y'all have the opportunity to attend a class with either master piper, do so, you will be well rewarded.
By the way, if you haven't done so already, I highly recommend obtaining a copy of "Move Your Fingers.. The Life and Times of Chris Langan". It is a mighty publication compiled and edited by Patrick Hutchinson, Paul Cranford and David Papazian. It's a great read and provides great insight to the piping of Chris Langan, in addition to a wealth of tunes some of which are Mr. Langan's own compositions.
BTW I wasn't paid or endorsed in any way for the above suggestion.
Tutors and NPU
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Joseph E. Smith
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Pipewort
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I am not as sure as Hans-Joerg that NPU have missed that pipers are as interested in techniques as tunes. That is what they have always been about in my view, playing the instrument properly.
Up until now, there has been no standard 'etude', as djones rightly says, for the ornamentations etc.
However, I am pretty sure there have been other threads on this forum where this type of suggestion has been howled down by many contributors.
One such etude or structured learning approach to ornamentation and tunes idea has been put up elsewhere, by someone who contributes here from time to time. See http://www.nwup.org/downloads/Chanter%2 ... t%20v2.pdf
I found this very useful, if a little late, though most of it has more than a just a little relevance to my journeys goals. Poor lad, his idea seemed to have little encouragement from the replys I read.
Heather Clarke, and Sean Potts CDROM, et al, do structure the learning, adding techniques as the (assumed) ability progresses. But, I would have found the information from the link above most useful at the start of my learning the UPipes, knowing what was expected, and learning it in isolation, and then in tunes. It would have speeded the process.
You can't learn it all at once. It is a progressive process, indeed it takes a number of years to hear what the good guys are doing, let alone trying it out yourself.
I have no doubt the NPU will address the concerns in the near future, if it is not already underway.
Up until now, there has been no standard 'etude', as djones rightly says, for the ornamentations etc.
However, I am pretty sure there have been other threads on this forum where this type of suggestion has been howled down by many contributors.
One such etude or structured learning approach to ornamentation and tunes idea has been put up elsewhere, by someone who contributes here from time to time. See http://www.nwup.org/downloads/Chanter%2 ... t%20v2.pdf
I found this very useful, if a little late, though most of it has more than a just a little relevance to my journeys goals. Poor lad, his idea seemed to have little encouragement from the replys I read.
Heather Clarke, and Sean Potts CDROM, et al, do structure the learning, adding techniques as the (assumed) ability progresses. But, I would have found the information from the link above most useful at the start of my learning the UPipes, knowing what was expected, and learning it in isolation, and then in tunes. It would have speeded the process.
You can't learn it all at once. It is a progressive process, indeed it takes a number of years to hear what the good guys are doing, let alone trying it out yourself.
I have no doubt the NPU will address the concerns in the near future, if it is not already underway.
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billh
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Standardization is anathema to traditional music. Get thee behind me! 
It's nice to have one or two common tutors (printed or otherwise) that people can refer to, but a standard repertoire is the road to eternal damnation.
(IMO) Piping styles are already getting too homogeneous!
As to number of tunes versus technique - I agree with the point I think Gay was trying to make - and also agree that the demand for more tunes often comes from the students. Or at least the instructors often perceive that it does, maybe this is a misconception?
I think Willy Week is sort of exceptional in that for so many players, this is the one big lesson time for the year. Anyone in a Miltown Malbay class without a tape recorder is not properly prepared - with the tape running a WCSS pipe class can easily give a learner enough material to keep them occupied till the next year; I think that's the idea. Because piping tuition is relatively rare and specialized compared to other instruments at WCSS, I think the "pack it in" approach may be more justifiable for piping instruction that, say, for fiddle. Under more normal circumstances I agree that even one tune per week may be more than optimal.
It's important that the tunes chosen form the basis for lessons about technique. Technique taught with just exercises will bore most learners to tears, and besides, the context is quite crucial. I myself prefer technique-based instruction to tune-learning, but then again I have long had a wall full of tune books and recordings if it's tunes I want.
Bill
It's nice to have one or two common tutors (printed or otherwise) that people can refer to, but a standard repertoire is the road to eternal damnation.
(IMO) Piping styles are already getting too homogeneous!
As to number of tunes versus technique - I agree with the point I think Gay was trying to make - and also agree that the demand for more tunes often comes from the students. Or at least the instructors often perceive that it does, maybe this is a misconception?
I think Willy Week is sort of exceptional in that for so many players, this is the one big lesson time for the year. Anyone in a Miltown Malbay class without a tape recorder is not properly prepared - with the tape running a WCSS pipe class can easily give a learner enough material to keep them occupied till the next year; I think that's the idea. Because piping tuition is relatively rare and specialized compared to other instruments at WCSS, I think the "pack it in" approach may be more justifiable for piping instruction that, say, for fiddle. Under more normal circumstances I agree that even one tune per week may be more than optimal.
It's important that the tunes chosen form the basis for lessons about technique. Technique taught with just exercises will bore most learners to tears, and besides, the context is quite crucial. I myself prefer technique-based instruction to tune-learning, but then again I have long had a wall full of tune books and recordings if it's tunes I want.
Bill
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djm
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The suggestion is to standardize teaching of technique, so that a). more of it is taught, and b). everyone is competent at technique before learning a billion tunes. To twist this into seeming as though standardization of "style" was being recommended is rather disingenuous.billh wrote:but a standard repertoire is the road to eternal damnation.
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
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Cayden
Or is it? Technique is not a stand alone issue. You can practice all the rolls and cranns you want and still not be able to pull off a tune in any decent way.djm wrote: The suggestion is to standardize teaching of technique, so that a). more of it is taught, and b). everyone is competent at technique before learning a billion tunes. To twist this into seeming as though standardization of "style" was being recommended is rather disingenuous.
djm
Techinique and how you use it is an integral part of how you approach the tunes i.e. the style you play.
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Jim McGuire
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There are other angles buried in Gay's comments. One is the 'death' of the solo player. It is rare when one hears a solo performer, especially on stage.
Within a touring group, there is little opportunity for solo contributions so the group sound dominates and you'll only hear the one solo party piece during the concert. Commercial pressure to fill stages - especially festival stages - with a larger-than-one-or-two-group is real.
Session playing dominates the bar scene and, again, it is more difficult for the solo player and their skills to emerge.
Within a touring group, there is little opportunity for solo contributions so the group sound dominates and you'll only hear the one solo party piece during the concert. Commercial pressure to fill stages - especially festival stages - with a larger-than-one-or-two-group is real.
Session playing dominates the bar scene and, again, it is more difficult for the solo player and their skills to emerge.
Yes, indeed. However, the same is true for other instruments for which études have been devised. It is understood that tunes and technique go hand-in-hand.Peter Laban wrote: Or is it? Technique is not a stand alone issue. You can practice all the rolls and cranns you want and still not be able to pull off a tune in any decent way.
Techinique and how you use it is an integral part of how you approach the tunes i.e. the style you play.
DJones
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Cayden
My point was re style, your approach is tied to the tune your playing. I don't think techniques are things you freely drop into tunes in a standard way. So it makes sense to learn them integrated in tunes. Listen to good pipers from Touhey to Ennis and how they shape their technique to fit the tunes and make them shine to their best advantage. Learning tunes in that way your tunes become your practiceground. It has worked in the past and it still works. You don't want your tunes to become a sequence of pre-learned movements, you need to adapt an integral approach and develop your technique as you go along. I can see Gay's point but I also think heavily standardising piping can take away from the variety that makes it so attractive.
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djm
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Sorry, I would disagree (but only to a certain extent) that you can't learn and practise technique separately, and really, we are talking about learning in the early stages, not at the point of developing a personal style. If you're a good enough piper to develop your own personal style, I think you should be able to comfortably pull off just about any technique to some extent. Whether you choose to incorporate a particular technique or style into your own playing at an advanced level is a very separate topic. But teaching the techniques themselves is something that can, and has, been done, and this is what I believe should be encouraged and standardized, so that all learners have as equally wide a learning opportunity.PeterLaban wrote:My point was re style, your approach is tied to the tune your playing
Learning only one school or style of piping techniques beacuse they are only used in certain standardized tunes in a standardized way would certainly be death to Irish piping, but learning as much technique in as many styles as possible as part of your early learning can only lead to a more well-rounded piper IMHO.
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
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Cayden
Yes but David what do you mean by 'learning more technique'? Praticing your rolls and cranns, triplets? Patterns of gracenotes/cuts? How to form your tone, use alternative fingerings, on and off the knee playing? Alternating open and closed fingerings? These are all elements of style and yes but the real basic stuff like rolls, triplets and cranns aside maybe, it's all relative to your total approach to different tunes and different circumstances and I don't really see how to isolate a lot of these elements. Maybe you can. I see more in the holistic approach.
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Jim McGuire
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I've run workshops and have heard from tons of folks over the years about their experiences at other tionols and Willie Week (and mostly with folks from the US).Peter Laban wrote:I see more in the holistic approach.
The net is that, while no one denies a slow IV drip of culture, music, singing, language, and dance is super, it does not serve the US/Canada/remote student too well. While nuggets of info in the time time allotted are precious, they come haphazardly and, overall, end up being a poor value (high $$$ against the info) and frustrating for the attendee. Nonetheless, most are grateful for the direct contact from a named piper from Ireland, etc.
Teachers in the day jobs are often very effective for the lesson at hand - Liam O'Flynn, Mick O'Brien, Tommy Keane, Brian McNamara, etc. It is just that what is passed on in the relative short amount of time is only a drop of what most folks need.
Comhaltas pushes learning by competition and that is a legitimate motivator for young people. Comhaltas also certifies teachers through class work and testing.
Certification is also possible for learning and that is a wide open avenue. In the US, certification courses exist for a ton of topics - I just saw one for custom home stereo installation - and they are effective for covering the material as organized and promised.
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djm
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Jim, Comhaltas has some great attributes, but the actual delivery is flawed. There are few if any Comhaltas classes in piping in North America. I don't know what the situation is in other non-Irish locations. One person I know who travelled to Boston to get certified as a Comhaltas instructor found that the person there from Ireland to give the intstructors' course was a fiddle teacher who announced at the outset that he hated the pipes, and the rest of the course went downhill from there. It would be great to get Comhaltas certified pipe teachers out into the field, but that seems a long way off yet.
Peter, I don't know how you could get a "holistic" treatment when most people here get one to two weekends instruction per year. I am not making fun of what you are saying or trying to be snide, but it seems to me that a holisitic approach would require constant tutelage and oversight to always be available.
Again, I am only looking so far as to get a full range of basics and techniques taught to as large an audience as possible, and to keep the level of teaching as high as possible at all times. This usually means a documented regimen so that people can learn not only what to do, but the hows and whys of it so they will understand. The NPU recorded classes were a great start as a method, but as has already been noted in this thread, they do little to expand one's repertoire as to how to do complicated moves.
On a recent thread someone asked how to get those long sliding notes that jump out in the second octave. I think he might have meant one of those pops where you cut the note below the target note just as you start to raise the chanter off the knee and then slide up to the target note. It would be great to see that demonstrated in slow motion by one of those instructors who are so good at illustrating these techniques.
Where one would use a technique is up to the individual in the end, but at least they would know how to do it, how it is supposed to sound, and to recognize it when they hear it occurring in a recording. I know that may sound pretty simplistic and basic to you, but that is all I was aiming at, not trying to turn someone into the next Johnny Doran.
djm
Peter, I don't know how you could get a "holistic" treatment when most people here get one to two weekends instruction per year. I am not making fun of what you are saying or trying to be snide, but it seems to me that a holisitic approach would require constant tutelage and oversight to always be available.
Again, I am only looking so far as to get a full range of basics and techniques taught to as large an audience as possible, and to keep the level of teaching as high as possible at all times. This usually means a documented regimen so that people can learn not only what to do, but the hows and whys of it so they will understand. The NPU recorded classes were a great start as a method, but as has already been noted in this thread, they do little to expand one's repertoire as to how to do complicated moves.
On a recent thread someone asked how to get those long sliding notes that jump out in the second octave. I think he might have meant one of those pops where you cut the note below the target note just as you start to raise the chanter off the knee and then slide up to the target note. It would be great to see that demonstrated in slow motion by one of those instructors who are so good at illustrating these techniques.
Where one would use a technique is up to the individual in the end, but at least they would know how to do it, how it is supposed to sound, and to recognize it when they hear it occurring in a recording. I know that may sound pretty simplistic and basic to you, but that is all I was aiming at, not trying to turn someone into the next Johnny Doran.
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
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Cayden
I leaarned to play between one Willie week each year for five years, spending the rest of the time in isolation with the Armagh tutor and the Willie book. And listening to anything I could get my hands on. So: no internet, videos, tionol tutoring and the present abundance of material. Don't whine to me about being disadvantaged. You have material t olisten andlearn from and ears.DJM wrote:Peter, I don't know how you could get a "holistic" treatment when most people here get one to two weekends instruction per year. I am not making fun of what you are saying or trying to be snide, but it seems to me that a holisitic approach would require constant tutelage and oversight to always be available.
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Uilliam
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The reason I introduced the subject was because I thought it an irony that the tutors were complaining about something they themselves started ..thats all.
On my very 1st Willie week I thought it completely crazy the amount of effort being made to learn as many tunes as possible( well thats a nonesense really because it just wasnae possible ) in the time frame available and the unbelievable pressure it put students under to learn tunes which were most probably totally unfamilar to them and then try and get the technique as well.
Never once was it said this is a years supply...and even if it was, the tape recorder would have had the tune for ye to go aff and learn,but no some o these tutors slavishly went through the tunes note by friggin note until yer head was full o mince.
On the other hand the very best weeks I had were with 2 tutors who concentrated on technique with tunes that the class agreed on in the beginning.
The difference between these extremes was enormous and left room for a lot of middle ground which judging frae some of the comments does not seem to have been achieved as yet.
Maybe now that Gay has raised the subject then it will be addressed more methodically than has hereto been the case.
Peter is absolutely right about pipering in the provinces...just get on wi it the best ye can.
I would say that since moving to Scotland my piping has gotten worse and has actually taken on a Scottish flavour which has been commented on by at least two individuals so whats the answer?Move to Dublin? I think not, it is get back to the books the tapes the CDs back to basics and get on wi it.It is actually fun to retread old ground and is a great tonic for my boredom
So happy pipering ye all
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
On my very 1st Willie week I thought it completely crazy the amount of effort being made to learn as many tunes as possible( well thats a nonesense really because it just wasnae possible ) in the time frame available and the unbelievable pressure it put students under to learn tunes which were most probably totally unfamilar to them and then try and get the technique as well.
Never once was it said this is a years supply...and even if it was, the tape recorder would have had the tune for ye to go aff and learn,but no some o these tutors slavishly went through the tunes note by friggin note until yer head was full o mince.
On the other hand the very best weeks I had were with 2 tutors who concentrated on technique with tunes that the class agreed on in the beginning.
The difference between these extremes was enormous and left room for a lot of middle ground which judging frae some of the comments does not seem to have been achieved as yet.
Maybe now that Gay has raised the subject then it will be addressed more methodically than has hereto been the case.
Peter is absolutely right about pipering in the provinces...just get on wi it the best ye can.
I would say that since moving to Scotland my piping has gotten worse and has actually taken on a Scottish flavour which has been commented on by at least two individuals so whats the answer?Move to Dublin? I think not, it is get back to the books the tapes the CDs back to basics and get on wi it.It is actually fun to retread old ground and is a great tonic for my boredom
So happy pipering ye all
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
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