A Fix for Hard Cane?

[Pipewort]

Three times now, from separate sources, I have heard of (similar) remedies for dealing with hard cane. That is, making hard cane OK for reed making.

In summary, it involves 'composting' the hard cane for a few weeks.

So, bury it in the grass clipping pile from your lawn mowings for a few weeks;

Or, hang it out during a northern winter in a cage, protected from the direct effects of rainfall;

And, leaving it in a damp outhouse for an extended period.

Presumably, this is to allow microbial action to 'work' on the cane fibres, so as to loosen them up, rather than just make the cane damp.

Has any one done this? If so, does it work. More details of your process would be interesting indeed. The batch of cane I got hold of recently is a little hard, and some means to soften it would be very interesting, not least to test how it stands up, over time, with 'good' cane.

Thanks,

Pipewort

[myrddinemrys]

weird. I've never heard of that.

[Tony]

.....Has any one done this? If so, does it work. More details of your process would be interesting indeed. The batch of cane I got hold of recently is a little hard, and some means to soften it would be very interesting, not least to test how it stands up, over time, with 'good' cane.

Thanks,

Pipewort

To some... hard cane *IS* good cane


Have you tried soaking the slips in neatsfoot oil?

[Joseph E. Smith]

To some... hard cane *IS* good cane

It is good cane, but it is easier to work when your tools are good and sharp.

Soaking the slips in neatsfoot oil may help, but personally I have yet to be convinced it produces a tone I find pleasing. I have worked on a number of chanters where the reeds that have come with them had been made with slips soaked in neatsfoot. I didn't like the sound of a single one of them, they all have seemed muted somehow, and produced what I'd call an "unclear" tone... a dead-ish tone. Perhaps it is just my personal taste.

The first thing I would do is to ask whoever supplies you with cane to select the softest stuff they have available and sell it to you. The big cane merchants primarily supply cane for wet wind instruments, thus they prefer to have cane that is pretty hard in order to survive many hours of being soaked in spit... among other things. It is my opinion that these cane merchants would only be more than happy to unload cane that didn't fit the bill for their regular customers, turning a profit on something that they'd most likely toss out.

Softer cane is that material which has progressed further along the decomposition path. It is stuff that most likely has been dead and in the ground longer that the harder cane. Decompostion is sped up through the cane being subjected to the elements, like rain and sun and bugs and fungus, everything that plays a role in breaking down its structure. You can synthesize this by allowing your harder cane to sit out in the elements a good while (1-2 weeks, maybe more), but you do not want to leave it out indeffinitely, there is such a thing as cane that is too soft. I have harvested this variety, earlier on in my Arundo Quest of a couple of years back, and it really does not make for a good reed.

Before you remove the cane from the elements, make certain that it is dry. Storing wet cane will cause an abundance of mold. A little mold is a good thing and a sign that the decaying process is going along nicely. A great big blue, black and green tube is not a good candidate for reedmaking and I wouldn't doubt that there may be health issues to watch out for as well.

Try an experimant with a single tube of cane, no need to risk the whole lot, and see what results you can come up with. When that experiment has run its course, let us know what your findings are.


I hope this helps some.

[Tony]

Sure Joe... but can you be more specific?

[maw]

The big cane merchants primarily supply cane for wet wind instruments, thus they prefer to have cane that is pretty hard in order to survive many hours of being soaked in spit... among other things.

eeeeeeeewwwww!!!!!

[Joseph E. Smith]

Sure Joe... but can you be more specific?

Specific is on the other coast, we live near the Lantic.

[fel bautista]

That's where Ted lives- on the specific

[hpinson]

I just put a pound of hard-as-rock bassoon cane from Woodwinds and Brasswinds into the output duct of my swamp cooler. This cane is un-useable for me, it splits if you look at it... So one way or another it's no loss. Momma always said I'd be a scientist.

I'll leave it there a week or so. We shall see!

[Ted]

Decomposition is not the whole story in cane softness/hardness. A magnified look at the end view of a cut off slip of cane will show that softer cane will have less fibrovascular bundles. They will be less densly packed together in soft cane, especially next to the bark. I have been doing some tests with trying to add more decomposition after initial cure, but find that the best results, so far, come from cane that is softer to begin with. Some cane is harder than optimal, IMHO, though reeds cane be made from it the are overbright too my ear. Some go for this tone, but I prefer the darker tone of softer cane. There is certainly such a thing as too soft cane, as Joseph pointed out. I am with him about the oil treatment as well. I have yet to hear an oiled or treated reed that has an optimal tone. I would like to play one that proves me wrong, as the idea of a more stable to environmental changes reed appeals to me as much as anyone. Reeds made from softer cane tend to require less scraping and are usually left thicker, especially at the tip. Thicker reeds tend to be more stable and slower to react to enviornmental vagaries. If anyone thinks that hard cane is desireable, I can send lots of it for far less than I get for softer cane.
Ted-on the specific

[Pipewort]

Thanks for all your contributions. Especialy JES, who replys fully, as always.

My humble experience is that 'softer' cane produces a better reed with better tone overall, and one that lasts longer. I can work any cane, but I always have my tools sharp, enough to shave the hairs off my forearm - blunt tools are dangerous.

The 'hard' I find is more difficult to work, in that it is more prone to splitting, either when binding to the staple, or when scraping, and has to be taken down to thiner dimensions when seeking the 'crow' or pitch.

'Soft' cane is easier to work - and I find it better in producing the desired result, more easily.

'Composting'

Bugs are not stupid. They will take the easy path, along the soft tissue, whether bacteria or fungii. I have some time in looking at fibre degredation in the ruminant stomach that sugests this as working hypothesis.

So, does composting 'soften' cane, to produce an equal tone, or just make a more workable material?

Also, from a study of the physiological changes in cell composition of graminaecious plants, is it time of harvest or time curing after harvest, that produces the ideal cane. Lignification, in effect stiffening of the stem, increases over time as the plant grows, as the cellulose (digestable content) decreases in proportion.

Does any one know when Arundo donax is traditionaly harvested in Spain/France, and or when it is harvested in California, in relation to plant maturity?. It has to be at a point when bulk of material vis a vis condition is at an optimim - so some or most will be in the ideal condition, and the rest either too soft or too hard, because bulk means money. The way grasses grow, some stems will be physiologically younger, or older, at any given time than others.

I live within a cheapish plane ride from Barcelona, and could go to select cured cane, perhaps, if the guys would let me Haven't asked, but might. But, for that cost I can get ten times the quantity of cane by post - that by luck is too hard, just right, or too soft. Or as JES says, just find cane that is in a condition that the bulk of the customers want it, for wet blown reeds, too hard.

I'll try some experiments over the next few months, but I am rather doubtful if they will work; but any more thoughts would be of interest, as I try hard cane, after time in the grass heap or the damp of a northern eurpoean winter.

One last question: Your cane arrives in good condition. Does it then remain stable, or does it gradually (weeks, rathers than months) harden off as you have it in store before using it ? i.e is it dried to the same softness, but either physiologically younger, or older - or something else, if it changes in nature?

PW

[John S]

From what I've read the hard cane as used for orchestral woodwinds is grown for 2 years whereas soft is harvested after 1 year.

John S

[Ted]

Soft cane is soft for several reasons; soil content, water, temperature and probably genetics. Commercial cane from France, grown for wet reeds, is harvested at two years growth. The soft cane I harvest is at least three years old, which is when the stalks normally die. I only harvest cane which died and has had some months or a year curing in the field. I set the cane aside for at least two more years to allow the curing process to complete, and the cane to stabilize. I specifically havest from sources which produce softer cane. There is a lot of harder cane closer to where I live. Cane for wet reeds is harvested in mid-winter, when the sap is down. As it is cut green, it requires three full years of curing. Cane cut at one year growth will just shrivel up. Dead cane can be cut anytime before too many wet cycles have rotted it beyond use. This whole subject has been extensively covered here before. A search under my name alone will take you to a couple of threads on the subject. Sufice it to say, as Joseph can also attest, that a stand of cane that grows soft cane, produces soft cane from year to year. Some miles away will be a stand which always produces hard cane. Soft cane is rarer here than hard cane. I only harvest from stands that consistantly produce the good stuff. I have soft cane which is still soft ten years after being cut. I travel over one hundred miles to harvest the cane I like.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Sufice it to say, as Joseph can also attest, that a stand of cane that grows soft cane, produces soft cane from year to year. Some miles away will be a stand which always produces hard cane. Soft cane is rarer here than hard cane. I only harvest from stands that consistantly produce the good stuff. I have soft cane which is still soft ten years after being cut. I travel over one hundred miles to harvest the cane I like.

I can attest to that indeed. Also, as Ted has pointed out, there are many environmental factors (and genetic) that come into play when looking for soft or hard cane. Arundo does produce (or rather reproduce) genetically consistant copies of its tubes. Actually, when you think about it, an individual cane break, what ever the size, is in all likelyhood a single plant.

For the cane I harvest here in Florida, the summertime climate is usually pretty darned humid, and normally we get an afternoon thunderstorm (usually around 3 pm... one could almost set their clocks to it), so there is a lot of moisture allowing for the Arundo here to thrive. The down side is, I really have to pay attention to the dead stuff, and try to harvest it before it rots, which is very quickly in this heat and humidity. I have found that cane I know to be dead in the ground for a year is a prime target for fungus, parasites and rain rot... damage by frequent rain that will remove the shiny portion of the bark and cause the tubes to turn white, not conducive to reedmaking at all.

Most of the soft cane I have harvested comes from a soil that is part sand, part black dirt and calcified remains of prehistoric plant an animal life is found in abundance. I cannot say with 100% certainty that this combination is a contibutor to soft cane, but I have a good hunch that it is.

I also have to travel good distances to get the cane I want, and a round trip of 150 to 200 miles is pretty common for me.

'Lantic JES.

[Tony]

200 miles? That would put you into my neighborhood. Hey guy's Joe says there's soft cane in Miami!



So what do you use to find your favorite stuff? Map? GPS? Bloodhound?