ivory billiard balls

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
Kevin Popejoy
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Post by Kevin Popejoy »

billh wrote:Technically David Lim is right, CITES doesn't _directly_ cover re-working...
Thanks for clarifying that David and Bill. I think there is a specific prohibition on reworking newly made craft items e.g., from the Inuit...or am I confused? In any case that wouldn't technically apply to antique stuff. Though poorly worded my main point was, even if you were using antique ivory there'd be no way of proving that once you reworked it thus making it impossible to obtain CITES permits.

Kevin
Last edited by Kevin Popejoy on Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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billh
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Post by billh »

Even if you did manage to prove the origin of the ivory (which in practice I think would be feasible), and you could therefore get CITES permits, bear in mind that those permits are good for one border crossing only, and cannot be used to facilitate a cross-border sale.

Thus a set of pipes made with "legal ivory" is a major pain to transport, and unsaleable outside of the country in which it is manufactured. It makes the whole business rather unattractive. You can really only get a CITES permit for scientific or educational purposes, or in order to transport your own personal effects. Selling such personal effects on arrival is illegal, because that constitutes international trade.

Bill
Kevin Popejoy
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Post by Kevin Popejoy »

Tricky business. I can't imagine why anyone would be interested in using it. k
Jim McGuire
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Post by Jim McGuire »

Personally, I'd skip the CITES route - doesn't sound worth it as even they don't cover all situations well. Find legal ivory if you need to!
Kevin Popejoy
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Post by Kevin Popejoy »

How would you go about skipping it? You mean just don't bother and hope no one notices? k
Jim McGuire
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Post by Jim McGuire »

Use legal ivory and rework it if needed. CITES is great to refer to and also to understand their position and recommendations.

When it comes down to it, ivory on Irish pipes is a low-risk endeavour and deservedly gets little attention from Customs or CITES.
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billh
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Post by billh »

Couple of points:

1) there is no such thing as 'legal ivory' (except mastodon/mammoth) if the instrument is to be sold to someone living outside the county where the legal ivory currently is located. Neither ivory nor things made from it may be sold internationally.

2) CITES permits are REQUIRED each time a legal item[1] crosses an international border for non-commercial reasons (i.e. each time you travel with the pipes). Failure to produce the CITES permit may result in confiscation of the instrument, and is an offense.

Major US airports now have trained fish and wildlife agents on location, searching for such material. Confiscations of other kinds of bagpipes have already occurred due to lack of CITES permits. I think the owners eventually got the instruments back, but the law does not obligate the US Fish and Wildlife department to do so.

CITES makes no "recommendations", it is an international treaty and is law in over 100 countries.

Bill

[1] exceptions to this rule are few; genuine documented antiques "over 100 years old" are an exception, but repairs to such instruments with more recent material are not, so a Kenna with a repaired mount from the 1950's would still require a CITES permit.
Jim McGuire
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Post by Jim McGuire »

We will all have to wait until that first instrument is really confiscated. CITES is nice but not perfect. If one uses legal ivory, what right do they have, since the specifically do not address that issue, to tell you what you can do with it.
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billh
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Post by billh »

Jim, you are mistaken, CITES has a lot to say about issues of "legal" (i.e. pre-convention) ivory. In the USA, another law, the "Asian and African Elephant Conservation Act" also applies even stricter regulation.

CITES makes use of post-convention (i.e. obtained from the wild post-1989) material illegal in internationally traded items. The "Conservation Act" extends this ban to material obtained post-1977, so in the USA, "legal ivory" must have been obtained from the wild before 1977.

CITES explicitly governs (though it does not entirely ban) international trade in Elephant ivory and the movement of elephany ivory across borders. Items made with pre-1977 ivory still must have CITES permits in order to be transported, unless they are certifiably over 100 years old. (Much of the thriving US trade in ivory from overseas appears to be in falsely-documented "antiques".) However you cannot get a CITES permit for material taken from the wild post-1977, because such material is illegal under the Conservation Act mentioned above.

Anyone who wants to read more and doesn't take my word for it, please feel free to peruse African Elephant Conservation Act and CITES.

From the CITES "How Cites Works" link: (note, elephants are 'Appendix I' specied, and ordinary cross-border travel is defined as 'export' and 'import', for purposes of CITES. Also, because CITES prohibits import of post -1989 material, and the Conservation Act prohibits import of post-1977 material, such material is not "legally obtained" and thus cannot be granted the "appropriate document" as referred to below):
A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below.

Appendix-I specimens

1. An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it.

2. An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required.

An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

There's also an
interesting PDF file of a Humane Society of the United States investigation into fraudulent ivory trade online.

Because I am the owner of a set of pipes (Musette de Coeur, not uilleann pipes) with elephant ivory mounts which were taken from the wild before 1977, I know what I am talking about, since I have been through the CITES permitting process myself.

Bill
Last edited by billh on Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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simonknight
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Post by simonknight »

This is how it worked out in practice for my brother. He travelled back into the UK with a post CITES but legal ivory item (which he had acquired some years before) but without any documentation. Result: item confiscated after four hours in a customs interview room. He later submitted his documentation which was deemed inadequate. The item wasn't returned.

Don't rely on gaps in CITES. The EU and US have their own laws covering the import, export and sales of ivory items. Ivory items are regularly confiscated and the burden of proof is on you to get them back.
Simon
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billh
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Post by billh »

Thanks for the testimonial Simon, it beats the theoretical argumentation hands-down.

For those who are interested, I edited my last post to include a number of URIs of interest. Further discussion should probably consult the legal documents themselves. There does seem to be lots of misunderstanding about CITES and also the US African and Asian Elephant Conservation Act, and certainly there are a lot of unscrupulous or perhaps just careless vendors out there selling stuff that technically isn't exportable.

Ebay/internet appear to be one of the biggest problems nowadays, as one might imagine. I would not be surprised to see new efforts at enforcement tailored to the shipping/transport trade. I wonder if sniffer dogs can be trained to find ivory? I bet so, since I know of a sniffer dog trained to identify large sums of cash!

Bill
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Post by uillmann »

Where does one apply for the permits for an antique set? Who, pray tell, can show me the date of my Taylor pipes? You guys are making me nervous. It has not been a problem taking them to Ireland in the past, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
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billh
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Post by billh »

Fortunately with Taylor you're pretty safe; a couple photos of Taylor sets, a photocopy of a printed article referring to your set, and something giving the dates the Taylors were active should be enough. A letter from another pipemaker or authority on the pipes, certifying that your set is a Taylor set, should be enough to establish its age; if you have the pipes insured, a photocopy of that document might be sufficient as well. Since Billy Taylor died in 1895 or so, no CITES permit would be necessary as long as there is no obviously modern ivory repair work.

Ivory-mounted Rowsome stuff is another matter, and may indeed be cause for concern. So long it was originally brought into the US before 1977, you'd be eligible for a CITES permit. I applied to the US Fish and Wildlife Service for mine, the time I travelled with ivory mounted pipes, and also applied to the Irish department of wildlife for a reciprocal import permit; the CITES docs seem to say nowadays that you should obtain the import permit before the export permit.

US Fish and Wildlife Directory of Permit Issuing Authorities: http://www.cites.org/common/directy/e_directy.html

Irish National Parks and Wildlife Service: http://www.npws.ie/

Owners of Rowsome sets could consider removing the ivory mounts temporarily for travel, if that is practical. I would expect that the chances of running into trouble bringing a Rowsome set into Ireland are slim; I'd be more concerned about getting the set back into the US, or travelling to some other country. Travelling with a more recently-made set with ivory mounts is where you'd be most likely to encounter trouble, since if the ivory is obviously old and yellowed, the CITES permit is arguably more of a technicality, whereas with new-looking stuff, it's more difficult to establish that the ivory itself is pre-convention.

Bill
Last edited by billh on Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kevin Popejoy
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Post by Kevin Popejoy »

I just read about half of the Humane Society document Bill provided...very sobering and depressing. I had to stop and take a break. Of particular interest is the CITES experiment in 1999 allowing the one time export of ivory from Botswana, Namibia, and Zimbabwe to Japan, the purpose of which was to determine if a tightly controlled legal ivory trade-that is, one shipment of ivory that was carefully monitored by CITES authorities at both exporting and importing ends-was possible without causing a detectable increase in poaching of elephants and/or illegal trade in ivory. A report discussed at the 2002 CITES meeting states that while the volume of ivory seisures worldwide decreased dramatically in the five years after the ban and leveled out between 1994 and 1998, the volume increased from 1999 to the present which of course directly correlates with the experimental export. So, if you think the use of "legal" ivory has no effect on poaching or illegal trade, guess again. It's obvious that as long as there is any kind of a market, there will be poaching.

Kevin
Jim McGuire
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Post by Jim McGuire »

I guess that the sky is falling for some of you. I offered an alternative position that is sensible. CITES is an organization that makes money by being an authority. There may be some goodness there but self-serving too.

The reality is that Customs policies, as they are applied, end up being reasonable too. So, everyone can strike their own happiness chord here.
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