Pilot Holes

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
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ausdag
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Post by ausdag »

mirabai wrote:
Re: boring and turning all at once, it has been my experience that even with well seasoned wood, it will always shrink a little and often warp slightly over time. It is only common sense to spread out the various operations to avoid this problem.
Hi Tim, What period of time are you suggesting? Perhaps it's climate difference, but none of this guy's chanters are warped and re-measuring the bores has not revealed any noticable shrinkage on a number of 15+ yr old chanters made in this method. I supppose if I looked up the bores there may be a bit of warpage not visible from the outside. He did show me a Woof narrow bore D made in 1983 (I think) out of European Box that was bent like a banana though and they were made under similar climactic conditions, so I'm stumped, although that's Box for you anyway. And my own ABW concert chanter made by another maker has been warped slightly since almost the day I got it. Plays fine though. Time will tell though with this chanter but so far so good.

Cheers,

DavidG
Last edited by ausdag on Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joseph E. Smith
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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

Do you get to keep that chanter David? :D
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ausdag
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Post by ausdag »

Joseph E. Smith wrote:Do you get to keep that chanter David? :D
iyup :)
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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

Good man! :party:
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upiper71
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Post by upiper71 »

ausdag wrote:
Joseph E. Smith wrote:Do you get to keep that chanter David? :D
iyup :)
David,

You did say Brazilian Rosewood, right. Did you have any pics of the chanter? The reason I ask is I mentioned Honduras Rosewood earlier and I have some pics at home that I could compare to the two together, just to see the difference.

Daryl
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billh
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Post by billh »

mirabai wrote:an an udder ting...

I can think of no reason to think that "most of the moisture is lost through the outer surface" regardless of boring. Definitely not my experience. It is demonstrated quite clearly every day in my shop that the wood dries, shrinks and otherwise moves more quickly and thoroughly after boring.

Tim B.
I agree with you Tim - note that when I said "most moisture is lost through the outer surface", I was referring to the case of a single narrow pilot bore. Once the chanter bore is roughed to size (i.e. step drilling and/or initial reaming), the rules change, because the surface area of that inner bore gets an order of magnitude bigger, and the newly-exposed wood surface is very nearly the final finished bore.

Another thing is that warping, and to a smaller extent shrinkage, is not just due to moisture loss; it's about changes in "residual stress" in the wood. When you cut away parts of a piece of wood, you change the balance of those internal stresses, and it can take awhile for them to re-equilibrate. I believe this is why a chanter can warp in the aftermath of reaming even if the starting blank was at equilibrium with the surrounding humidity.

As for boxwood, it's famous for warping. Some of this may be due to moisture loss, some due to residual stresses from "tension and compression wood", and I've heard that the application of modest heat can trigger dramatic warping in boxwood that was otherwise long seasoned.

As Tim says, I see little harm in a banana-shaped bore provided the cross-sectional area has not shrunk; the problem is that curvature of the bore makes it impossible for a reamer to cut accurately. If the warping began during the reaming process, then my guess is that the internal bore doesn't match the reamer very exactly at the end of the day.

This *might* be seen as an argument against re-reaming of boxwood bores, whereas for materials like ebony, reaming in stages over a long time is usually considered good practice. If in order to avoid the "crooked bore" problem in boxwood, one decides to ream more or less in one go, I would still think it wise to step bore early and leave the maximum time between step boring and final reaming, and hope that any warpage during the "settling time" between step-boring and reaming is small enough that a straight bore can be cut by the reamer, without excessive flexing.

Bill
Last edited by billh on Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by billh »

IrishPiper42 wrote:I use "taper pin reamers". I use 6 different reamers, #3-#8. There almost the perfect taper. There's some overlap in the sizes so I figured out how deep I wanted to go with each one and where I wanted that particular reamer to stop - that's where I ground the back end of the flutes down. By controlling the amount of overlap and the depth of each one in this way I get the bore to th exact dimensions I want.
-Mike B
Seems to me that this can only work for concave bores, not convex ones. Concert pitch bores tend towards concave, but flat pitch bores are (mostly) convex.

Bill
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Post by ausdag »

Joseph E. Smith wrote:Good man! :party:
'course it's nothing special to look at - no mounts, no key blocks apart from the Cnat key, simple brass top. Basically just a stick, but hey. :D

Daryl, I'll try and post some pics tomorrow. It's going back to be finished sometime this weekend so I should be able to post some before and after shots. (and a sound file perhaps but my sound setup would do it no justice).


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Post by mirabai »

What period of time are you suggesting? Perhaps it's climate difference, but none of this guy's chanters are warped and re-measuring the bores has not revealed any noticable shrinkage on a number of 15+ yr old chanters made in this method. I supppose if I looked up the bores there may be a bit of warpage not visible from the outside.

It's purely precautionary in that, depending on the wood, the climate, etc., things may go well or not. It's just common sense to do what you can in this direction. Also the warping and shrinking hopefully won't be that noticable except when you put it back on the lathe and the thing isn't spinning true. It is typical for proffessional woodwind makers to follow a very conservative progression as I suggest (reread the post and you'll see what I suggest).

Tim
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Post by mirabai »

whoops! deleted the quotes.
Tim Britton

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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

ausdag wrote:
Joseph E. Smith wrote:Good man! :party:
'course it's nothing special to look at - no mounts, no key blocks apart from the Cnat key, simple brass top. Basically just a stick, but hey. :D
In my book, looks play second fiddle to tone anyway. :)
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Post by mirabai »

billh wrote:I agree with you Tim - note that when I said "most moisture is lost through the outer surface", I was referring to the case of a single narrow pilot bore. Once the chanter bore is roughed to size (i.e. step drilling and/or initial reaming), the rules change, because the surface area of that inner bore gets an order of magnitude bigger, and the newly-exposed wood surface is very nearly the final finished bore.
Bill
got it.
billh wrote:Another thing is that warping, and to a smaller extent shrinkage, is not just due to moisture loss; it's about changes in "residual stress" in the wood. When you cut away parts of a piece of wood, you change the balance of those internal stresses, and it can take awhile for them to re-equilibrate. I believe this is why a chanter can warp in the aftermath of reaming even if the starting blank was at equilibrium with the surrounding humidity.
Bill
Exactly. That's why I rough turn before I bore.
billh wrote:If in order to avoid the "crooked bore" problem in boxwood, one decides to ream more or less in one go, I would still think it wise to step bore early and leave the maximum time between step boring and final reaming, and hope that any warpage during the "settling time" between step-boring and reaming is small enough that a straight bore can be cut by the reamer, without excessive flexing.
Bill
The only point to add is that a symetrically fluted reamer can follow a "warped" bore much better than a "D" reamer or flat stock reamer.

Tim B.
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Post by Doogie »

mirabai wrote:
The only point to add is that a symetrically fluted reamer can follow a "warped" bore much better than a "D" reamer or flat stock reamer.

Tim B.
I've noticed that, they have a little bend/give to them... :D


Here's a picture of a couple of symetrically fluted reamers..

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Post by billh »

man, there's a good argument for a CNC lathe/mill. :-D
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Post by Doogie »

billh wrote:man, there's a good argument for a CNC lathe/mill. :-D
Whats that??
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