usage of Cnat key in first octave

wolvy · Post by **wolvy** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:44 am

I find that sometimes it sounds cleaner to use the C-nat key instead of cross-fingering in the first octave. For example the first B-Cnat-B triplet (regular triplet, not ornament) in "Rights of Man" is much easier and cleaner when using the key instead of the cross fingering. The flute players do this stuff all the time, but I have the impression that it should not be done on UP. Am I starting a bad habit here? wadda ya tink?

PJ · Post by PJ » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:49 am

In many cases, triplets are played with C#, even if Cnat is indicated. It's play so quickly that it's not really obvious. I've heard flute players call it 'colouring the C'.

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:59 am

What PJ says is correct for fast triplets, but if you find your Cnat obtained by cross fingering sounds a bit off, you may have to play with your fingering on the bottom hand a bit. Different chanter/reed combinations require different fingering to get the Cnat to sound correct. e.g. try opening just the G, or G+F#, or just the F#, or F#+E, or F#+E+Eb. Also play around with the lower hand fingering to get the Cnat to sound correct when playing off the knee.

djm

wolvy · Post by **wolvy** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:01 am

Yes, I do that sometimes as well. Or roll the finger just a tad to get a half hole.

Another tune I like to hit the c-nat key with is Patsy Geary's, in the A part.

I am talking about non-ornament notes. My cross-fingered c-nat is just fine, (in tune, etc), but sometimes it just is easier and sounds smoother to use the key. Is this sloppy piping?

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:05 am

No, not if that is the way you intended the note to sound. But you are denying yourself the opportunity to slide up to the Cnat, or down from the Cnat. Learning to finger the notes gives you more options.

djm

PJ · Post by PJ » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:17 am

Some time back, when shopping for pipes, I contacted Jim Daily. One of my questions was how many blocks were on his chanter - i.e. how many keys could be added. His reply was that keys were not necessary on a chanter as all notes could be cross fingered.

Is this so? If yes, how practical is it to cross finger all notes, particularly when playing slow tunes?

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:24 am

Cnat in the 2nd 8ve is not available by cross fingering or half holing. Some say that this is absolutely the only key you need. I guess it depends on how accurate you can be half holing when playing at speed. A key gives you a much more accurate note. Personally, I like four keys: Fnat, G#, A#, Cnat. There are not many tunes that need some of these notes, but I find the keys help, especially in the 2nd 8ve. Like so many things in piping, it comes down to person preference. I do not believe you can declare much of anything is absolutely correct. There is always someone with another way, or a different preference.

djm

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:36 pm

djm is right there Tom. Try to get the Cnat fingering down for The Right's of Man, that's a hornpipe so the triplet should be nice and slow.

Some of the old players [and some of the current ones too] used the Cnat key as a gracenote within legatto runs. I think the Doran's did this. Listen to Eoin O'Riabhaigh's CD "Handed Down"... he does this on The Lark On The Strand to great effect. I'd say Mr. P. Keenan would also do such things.

Bye now,

PD.

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:37 pm

Patsy Touhey used the key for C nat, according to his own "Hints for Amateur Pipers." Actually a lot of the time he'd just play a C#, for the sake of the staccato. Colclough's tutor from the 1840s says to use the keys for Cnat and C# - for the latter, employing the key used for D in the third octave.
I've some old video of Paddy Keenan where you can see him using the key for the CBA legato triplet in Colonel Fraser.

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:50 pm

KLR wrote:I've some old video of Paddy Keenan where you can see him using the key for the CBA legato triplet in Colonel Fraser.

Really? I've been beating myself up over not being able to play that triplet as cleanly as Keenan. I guess that just goes to show one can go too far the other way in avoiding using the keys even though it might be the better choice. I'll have to try that one tonight. Thanks very much for that, Kev.

djm

tompipes · Post by **tompipes** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:03 pm

Touhey used the C key cos the crossfingering on Taylor chanters is very sharp. This is because the C# is in tune and not flat like a lot of chanters.
Listen to Johnny Doran play Rakish Paddy. He uses the key for most of those long C's in the first part.
It is a good idea not to become dependant on the key either. Practise the cross fingering too.

But you are denying yourself the opportunity to slide up to the Cnat, or down from the Cnat.

Not really so,
You can slide if you open the key slowley.

I always believe the trick with pipes is to try as many different ways to do things as you can.
Eventually you will settle on whats comfortable to do and what you believe sounds nice. The combination of all these things will result in your own unique style.

Tommy

MikeyLikesIt · Post by **MikeyLikesIt** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:18 pm

Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:I've some old video of Paddy Keenan where you can see him using the key for the CBA legato triplet in Colonel Fraser.

What part of the tune is that triplet used? The fourth part?

Antaine · Post by **Antaine** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:29 pm

I use the key in the first octave with liberal abandon. about the only tune i don't use it for is A Nation Once Again, and possibly one arrangement of the Minstrel Boy.

the fingerings i had worked out (some better than others) minimizing inaccurate half holeing for my first, unkeyed chanter is

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:49 pm

tompipes wrote:Touhey used the C key cos the crossfingering on Taylor chanters is very sharp. This is because the C# is in tune and not flat like a lot of chanters.

Tommy

I played Touhey's chanter and ofcourse I checked: it is very well capable of a very nice cross fingered C natural.

(i have played several Taylor chanters that would not, or very reluctantly, give a C nat but the Touhey chanter didn't mind at all. To my surprise I admit although Clancy could bend the C on his Taylor chanter nicely into shape)

David Lim · Post by **David Lim** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:23 pm

MikeyLikesIt wrote:
Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:I've some old video of Paddy Keenan where you can see him using the key for the CBA legato triplet in Colonel Fraser.
What part of the tune is that triplet used? The fourth part?

I would guess it's the first part where the legato triplets can go

dcB cBA

at the beginning of the first bar and at repeats of that phrase later on.

The second c would be the one played with the key.

As wolvy mentions Patsy Geary's earlier, when Keenan plays it on one of the Bothy band records, the tone of the cnat (when he plays BcnatB at the beginning of the second bar) indicates it is played with the key.

I find a combination of the tone (timbre) and fluidity of the keyed cnat tends to give it away.

My advice (FWIW) would be if you are conciously using the cnat key in the first octave for it's musical effect then go for it. If you are using it to make the note easier to play then strongly consider going back to the cross fingered note.

David