eric wrote:
I listen to them out of pure enjoyment, not out of doing homework. Their musicality gives far too much enrapturement that any perceived non-metronomoid timing or imperfect adherence to perfect unwavering pitch (which is a complicated topic in itself: please read Hennebry's book on pitch in traditional Irish music) does not detract from the music.
That's what I mean by learning to listen past the out-of-time/tune ness. There isn't a great deal of it anyway. Once your ear becomes accustomed to the nuances of pipes tuning and all that it (out of time/tune)becomes less apparent.
PJ - I used have trouble with unaccompanied pipes - I liked my pipes accompanied with pounding rhythm, or at least a good Irvine-esque buzuki or mandola, plus I could never work out what all the fuss was about concerning Ennis and Clancy. Now that I've stopped doing the folk band thing and started playing more on my own, I've discovered a much deeper inspiration and understanding of what Ennis and Clancy and the old pipers have to offer, as I know you yourself realise as well. Hell, I may even get myself a good flat set one day, in one of those whacky tunings like C# or something
At this moment the ghosts of Ennis, Clancy, Rowesome and the like are all sitting around the ceili house, a bottle of Powers half full on the table, enjoying a good laugh at all this.
Almost too dumb to reply to. Swing was jazz cleaned up for white folks, but the musicians certainly considered themselves jazz musicians. Even the swing musicians couldn't stand Welk. His music was termed "champagne music" - lots of bubbles, no substance. I hear he was very popular in Minnesota.
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
Almost too dumb to reply to. Swing was jazz cleaned up for white folks, but the musicians certainly considered themselves jazz musicians. Even the swing musicians couldn't stand Welk. His music was termed "champagne music" - lots of bubbles, no substance. I hear he was very popular in Minnesota.
djm
Yes he was. I'm not certain if I would consider the stuff he directed and performed either swing or jazz..... schlock comes to mind.
Interesting topic. I also came of age in the sad sad 80's, but have a slightly different background. Pop music never had a hold on me. I grew up (and still do) listening and composing experimental music. Everything from big noise stuff (Thorbbing Gristle, Einstürzende Neubauten), early ambient (Eno, Fripp), hardcore punk (Black Flag, Minor Threat), alternative whatever-it's called-this-week (Slint, Trans Am), and of course you gotta give straight up props to the old country and blues (Jimmie Rogers, Skip James, Robert Johnson).
If you look at all these genres you'll see very little influence (blues aside) of folk styles much less a set of pipes. But, even though I have been recording experimental music since the early 80's, I have been attracted to UP's for just about as long. Something about the drones, the ornamentation and the rhythm - who knows.
I have never really listened to any of the big ITM bands (though I do like a good session), I've never seen or heard Riverdance and prefer my pipes unaccompanied. Give me an old guy wailing away and I'm happy (then again, I also like sean nos). I've been slowly building my collection of the classics (Ennis, Rowsome, Dolan, Clancy) and the more contemporary (Rickard, Potts, Rowsome) but almost all of it unaccompanied.
The thing is, I don't think I am an anomaly - getting into ITM via the pipes. I know several people who really like UP's but don't listen to any ITM. I just think it is something about this horrible octopus we all wrestle with, so sort of sonic mind control that makes us put up with the suffereing and years of humiliation. This same sonic mind control is what makes the pipes so pleasing to people who don't listen to or have never even really heard ITM.
So in conclusion, um, I guess I don't really have a conclusion, just a long rambling post.
Almost too dumb to reply to. Swing was jazz cleaned up for white folks, but the musicians certainly considered themselves jazz musicians. Even the swing musicians couldn't stand Welk. His music was termed "champagne music" - lots of bubbles, no substance. I hear he was very popular in Minnesota.
djm
Sorry, I don't have a barf emoticon. I was looking askance at Welk from my earliest memory of him.
And a-one and a-two: Diddle deDee, deDiddle deDee, deDit deDiddle deDiddle deDee...
Almost too dumb to reply to. Swing was jazz cleaned up for white folks, but the musicians certainly considered themselves jazz musicians. Even the swing musicians couldn't stand Welk. His music was termed "champagne music" - lots of bubbles, no substance. I hear he was very popular in Minnesota.
djm
Just proves my point even more. Welk never billed himself as a great or any sort of "jazz" player, he was a big-band leader and actually absorbed a lot of the other "real" big-band players from the "real" big-bands as they all fell apart through the years and kept them off the streets. Welk billed his own music as "champagne" music, it wasn't hung on him in derision, it was exactly what he was going for and it not only found a large and loyal audience, but it put a lot of food on the table for a lot of otherwise unemployable "jazz" musicians who are free to whine as they may.
Also swing wasn't really cleaned up jazz for white folks--it was what white folks, and a lot of Jewish white folks did with jazz concepts. You could argue that Welk aped Glenn Miller for midwestern Lutherans in a flavor they could handle maybe, but I don't think you could argue that Glen Miller aped the Hall Brothers or Louie Armstrong, they just did something else with it, and Lawrence Welk was so far away from the original he'd probably never even heard it.
It's just a very passe and cheap shot for the unimaginative to cite Welk in this context because he did what he did for his audience and himself according to his and their own tastes, bland as it was. He wasn't out to be a great musician, jazz or otherwise and never made those pretentions. You should reserve that sort of derision for Pat Boone or other blatant knock-off artists.
Royce
He was from North Dakota and shares my birthday--a few years earlier but same day.
Almost too dumb to reply to. Swing was jazz cleaned up for white folks, but the musicians certainly considered themselves jazz musicians. Even the swing musicians couldn't stand Welk. His music was termed "champagne music" - lots of bubbles, no substance. I hear he was very popular in Minnesota.
djm
Yes he was. I'm not certain if I would consider the stuff he directed and performed either swing or jazz..... schlock comes to mind.
Hmm, exactly the same criticism made by the Irish of most American attempts at Irish Traditional music--uilleann piping in particular. Bunch of yanks cleaning up Irish ethnic music for fat, white, lazy, overpaid Americans with way too much to spend on expensive full sets.
djm wrote:
Almost too dumb to reply to. Swing was jazz cleaned up for white folks, but the musicians certainly considered themselves jazz musicians. Even the swing musicians couldn't stand Welk. His music was termed "champagne music" - lots of bubbles, no substance. I hear he was very popular in Minnesota.
djm
Yes he was. I'm not certain if I would consider the stuff he directed and performed either swing or jazz..... schlock comes to mind.
Hmm, exactly the same criticism made by the Irish of most American attempts at Irish Traditional music--uilleann piping in particular. Bunch of yanks cleaning up Irish ethnic music for fat, white, lazy, overpaid Americans with way too much to spend on expensive full sets.
Royce
That's me in a nut shell... except for the 'overpaid' part.
