Bottom D

[Eivind]

Hi all,

I hate to break into the forum these days with such a newbie question.
Anyway; I _have_ searched for this and only found 5-6 threads, which were not useful to me. I am quite surprised not to find more threads with this in the topic

My problem:
- the bottom D. I have a C.Roberts chanter (practice set) and just started fiddling with it. I can play a decent scale up to somewhere in the 2nd register. But; to do so I have to use quite some bag pressure.
A few people have (independantly) told me that's probably right (to use that much pressure, that is).
But, this causes the Bottom D to break into 2nd reg most of the time. Even a flick on the 'A' does not help much. I was able to help it slightly a few days ago, by adding a paper tube in the bottom end of the chanter. Then yesterday; the bottom D is suddenly too low; while the rest of the scale is OK. Only solution is to ease the bag pressure quite much; which makes it diffcult to play anything in succession with the Bottom D. At least in tune, that is...

So, any particular tip on how I can easier handle the Bottom D without altering the bagpressure too much?

HP,

Eivind

[djm]

It sounds like you're having a couple of problems. First of all, you must expect to vary the bag pressure. It is not constant. The lower octave requires less pressure than the upper octave. For your particular chanter you may find that some notes require more or less pressure to play them in tune. Experiment.

However, the difference in pressure from the lower octave should not be very much. If you have to press the bag very hard it may be that your reed is closing up too much, caused by a drop in humidity. In that case, you may have to move the staple a VERY SMALL amount to open the lips of the reed. Try this in VERY SMALL increments to see if it helps.

If you have to pump a lot of air into your set and apply a lot of pressure in the upper octave, you may have some leaks in your set, or possibly you are not closing all the tone holes completely. For leaks in your set, close all the chanter holes and listen for air escaping. It may be that the wood has shrunk with lower humidity, which will require some additional thread at the joints. Hopefully the bag or bellows are not leaking, as this is major, and you will want to get in contact with the pipemaker.

For finger leaks at the tone holes, try closing all the tone holes and listen/feel for air escaping at your fingertips. It takes a bit of experimentation and practise to make sure you are covering all holes but are not using too much force to hold the chanter (death grip). You should not hold the chanter with any more force than required to hold a drinking straw. At the same time, you must ensure that you are closing the appropriate holes completely when playing in the second octave. It is a mistake to get into the habit of over-pressuring in the upper octave to compensate for tone holes not correctly closed.

djm

[Rick]

- the bottom D. I have a C.Roberts chanter (practice set) and just started fiddling with it.

No offense but.., practise a bit first!?

-
I was able to help it slightly a few days ago, by adding a paper tube in the bottom end of the chanter. Then yesterday; the bottom D is suddenly too low; while the rest of the scale is OK.

Putting stuff in the bottom of the chanter makes the D note go down.., removing the paper again should help..

If the bottom D has a tendency to squeek with a bit of pressure the reed might be too closed.
Opening the reed a tiny bit will cure that BUT.., that will make the 2nd octave a bit harder to get.
If you just started out this is not very strange, you are not yet used to the instrument and getting the 2nd octave is more of a technique thing than blatantly forcing air through it.

Good luck with your piping!

[beckitybek]

[quote="djm"]. First of all, you must expect to vary the bag pressure. It is not constant. The lower octave requires less pressure than the upper octave.[quote="djm"]


????????? Are you sure? I've always worked on the principle of keeping the bag pressure as steady as possible, especially when learning.

[Eivind]

Heh,

I appreciate your comments, guys.
Of course I am aware that I cant just go ahead and expect to do this right the first time.

First of all, you must expect to vary the bag pressure. It is not constant. The lower octave requires less pressure than the upper octave. For your particular chanter you may find that some notes require more or less pressure to play them in tune. Experiment.

However, the difference in pressure from the lower octave should not be very much.
djm

Thats what I thought. I have some experience with other bagpipes, and would expect to have to adjust slightly allover. Even though people allover this forum give the advice that bagpressure should be near constant/as steady as possible.
But this kind of drop necessary here seems way off to me.

And Rick, I know the bottom note would go flat if I prolonged the pipe. Which I didn't - I was tipped off to just add something to muffle it slightly, make it narrower at the end or whatever So the paper roll is just inside the bottom opening (was).
Well, back to practice then.

Thanks,

E.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Eivind:"Well, back to practice then. "
=============================================

I used to have a piano teacher, as a kid, who would constantly inform me that "practice makes perfect." As I grew up I came to realize that 'practice makes my brain hurt'.

[Eivind]

getting the 2nd octave is more of a technique thing than blatantly forcing air through it.

Hmm, would you mind elaborating a little on this, Rick?
Sounds interesting. Is this about closing everything up before opening at the target note? I kinda feel the transition itself will come with practice, what bothers me more is making the reed stay in the 2nd register and not pop back into 1st. That would require pressure that is constantly slightly higher, right? (of course really thight will help, too

I have read (here) that some chanters are more forgiving towards not-entirely-closed fingering than others.
- Would it mean anything that this particular one seems to be _more_ forgiving, to the extent that I find it easier to keep it in tune NOT closing entirely? I almost always keep 2 sometimes 3 holes open beneath. Except for Back D, which sounds better (I think) entirely closed.
Gotta go home experiment, bye!

Eivind

[djm]

Are you sure? I've always worked on the principle of keeping the bag pressure as steady as possible, especially when learning.

Everything is relative. I was responding to Eivind's comment that he was having trouble getting into the upper second octave. But this applies to first octave as well. You won't get a hard bottom D in a dry climate without adding a bit of pressure, and I know I get jumped all over when I don't use a hard bottom D on just about everything. For my A in the lower octave I have to add a bit of pressure to get it up to in-tune. This is just a reed thing particular to my current reed, but others on this forum have noted the need to adjust pressure for various notes on their reeds, as well.

Of course the best thing for Eivind to do is to get in front of an experienced UPiper for an hour. That would probably sort out most of his concerns. But if you're isolated (I think Eivind is in Finland?) then you have to try a bit of everything to find out where the problem lies. I was trying to give him a spread of options to try. Hope it wasn't too confusing.

djm

[Royce]

And Rick, I know the bottom note would go flat if I prolonged the pipe. Which I didn't - I was tipped off to just add something to muffle it slightly, make it narrower at the end or whatever So the paper roll is just inside the bottom opening (was).
Well, back to practice then.

Thanks,

E.

It amounts to the same thing. Any time you reduce the size of an exit hole it makes the note flatter. I'd also suggest you don't have all the holes covered tightly, which makes bottom D tricky. I'd also suggest that the reed, if stock, may not be scraped or perhaps trimmed enough.

Royce

[ausdag]

I'd also suggest you don't have all the holes covered tightly, which makes bottom D tricky.

Royce

If, like me, you had to re-read this statement, you may interpret it two ways-

1) I'd also suggest that you SHOULDN'T have all the holes covered tightly - this doesn't make sense

2) I'd also suggest that you perhaps ARE NOT playing with the holes covered tightly ENOUGH - this one makes more sense.

Cheers,

DavidG

[brianc]

No offense but.., practise a bit first!?

...........

Agreed.

Check out Patrick Sky's thread about learning how to control your pipes.

[Rick]

getting the 2nd octave is more of a technique thing than blatantly forcing air through it.

Hmm, would you mind elaborating a little on this, Rick?

Not at all..

If you, for instance, want to get to the G in the second octave in one go you might have problems reaching/maintaining it.
Probably all the pipers here that play for a few years go "huh.., why?" and the ones just starting out go "yeah! i got that problem!"
It takes some practise to do this and you can't expect to sound that note just by sitting on the bag with all your weight and open the G hole(s)
That will probably even close the reed completely having it not make any sound at all.
You need time to feel how the chanter/reed behaves and once you got that
it will be a piece of cake to do this.
Leaving notes open to get 2nd octave notes (run up to a note) is allowed but then you also have to close these notes again to have the note you want to play in pitch.
It's hard to explain but you will understand what i mean at some point going "oooh.., this is simple" (well.., everything is relative ;p)
I just meant to say, do NOT rely on heavy bagpressure to get a 2nd octave note, you don't need too high a pressure to get/maintain them.
Or your reed must be a real bugger or too open.

Good luck!

[Royce]

I'd also suggest you don't have all the holes covered tightly, which makes bottom D tricky.

Royce

If, like me, you had to re-read this statement, you may interpret it two ways-

1) I'd also suggest that you SHOULDN'T have all the holes covered tightly - this doesn't make sense

2) I'd also suggest that you perhaps ARE NOT playing with the holes covered tightly ENOUGH - this one makes more sense.

Cheers,

DavidG

My suggestion is that all this whining about not getting a strong bottom D is because you don't have all the holes covered tightly. From this I can also suggest that you don't know how to play well enough to make any sort of evaluation concerning the reed. So rather than a thread a mile long about how to fix the reed and second octave technique, maybe we should first see if the player can actually cover all the holes.

These are just suggestions, because without the chanter in my hands I can't really even guess what the problem is.

Royce

[morten]

Allow me to help a bit - I know the chanter and the reed. In fact I've played it for years

Eivind it shouldn't be that hard at all. It is a very soft reed, so it must have opened up a lot, the way you describe it. Try to close it up by moving the bridle down. The lips should be closer than you think....

I've had a rolled up piece of paper in the bell occasionally, and sometimes a guitar string to tune it. Mostly it wasn't nessesary. It probably will need small variations in pressure though.

The norwegian climate must be real rough on the reed I guess

- And there is a new reed on its way - expect it in a week or so.

Morten

[Eivind]

Ok Morten,

thanks a lot. I will tamper/pamper the reed slightly over the weekend when I am no more a homeless person

E