Ebony Vs Blackwood

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:23 am

bradhurley wrote:
Lorenzo wrote:Ever play a glass flute? I have. Make a glass chanter and find out the truth real fast.
But glass flutes can't be compared to wooden flutes because the glass ones don't have conical bores (at least not the ones I've tried).

I was comparing the tone of a cylindrical glass flute to an exact replica of the maker's cylindrical wooden flutes.

billh · Post by **billh** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:24 am

Joseph E. Smith wrote:This may have little or no bearing on chanters, but makers of wooden instruments like the violin, guitar, mandolin and so on, choose the wood they use to make their instruments out of chiefly for reasons of acoustics. ...
If this is the case, then I would hazard an educated guess that chanters cannot be omitted from this scenario simply because the physics behind the acoustics of different woods would not permit it.

As I pointed out in a previous post, the acoustical physics of woodwind versus "soundbox" instruments is radically different from that of "woodwind" instruments. Trying to apply the lessons of soundbox instruments to woodwinds in this regard easily leads one to erroneous conclusions.

-Bill

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:30 am

Joseph...do an experiment, like putting a silencer on a rifle, or putting a clip on the bridge of a violin. There must be something you could attach to or around a chanter or flute to see if the material will absorb the sound. And if it does, that would lead one onward to explore the difference between tone and volume, and how one depends on the other.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:34 am

Billh:"Trying to apply the lessons of soundbox instruments to woodwinds in this regard easily leads one to erroneous conclusions"
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I have little doubt of this. I am pointing out that the acoustical aspects of wood, whether or not it is a sound box or woodwind instrument, has something to say about that instrument's tone. The sound box simply acts as an amplifier, the wood that it and the rest of the instrument is constructed of dictates the instruments tone.

Admittedly, I do not have a degree, nor do I ply my trade in woodworking. Therefore, I cannot say with any conviction I am correct. But I have been playing wooden instruments for over thirty-five years, and I do notice tone differences in different woods....woodwind or not. Could you tell the difference between a pine flute and an Ebony flute? I bet you could.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:44 am

Lorenzo:"Joseph...do an experiment, like putting a silencer on a rifle, or putting a clip on the bridge of a violin."
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I sometimes mute my fiddle with one out of Ebony. There is a definite tone difference. As far as muting a chanter...I would think for that experiment to work, the bore walls also must be muted with a different material. Simply applying something to the outside body of the instrument wouldn't have quite the result I would be looking for. What do you think?

billh · Post by **billh** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:52 am

Joseph E. Smith wrote:Lorenzo:"Joseph...do an experiment, like putting a silencer on a rifle, or putting a clip on the bridge of a violin."
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I sometimes mute my fiddle with one out of Ebony. There is a definite tone difference. As far as muting a chanter...I would think for that experiment to work, the bore walls also must be muted with a different material. Simply applying something to the outside body of the instrument wouldn't have quite the result I would be looking for. What do you think?

The ebony mute works by adding mass to the viollin bridge. Brass ones do it too, but of course the weight is different and the "damping" is different in both cases. Again, a _totally_ different kettle of fish to the role of wooden chanter walls.

Bill

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:58 am

In short, Bill H is right. Basically, it does not matter at all what type of wood pipes are made of, rather it matters how that wood reacts to machining. Woods that, due to their grain and other factors, yield a very smooth bore produce a brighter tone than woods that yield a grainy bore.

The factual part:
I can add some actual "I have done this" experience here. I will keep it short, write me a PM for more detail if interested. I made 10 identical Northumbrian smallpipes chanters in a variety of woods. These all had gun drilled bores, as these bores are cylindrical, would be as close to identical as possible. The woods ranged from African blackwood and ebony (both brightest, the blackwood being just a touch more so), to Honduras rosewood, bubinga, hard maple, mesquite, cherry, walnut, pecan and white oak (in more or less that order of descending brightness).

Based on the notion that bore smoothness at the micro-level was the answer, I then, on advice of another maker, shellaced the bore of some of the duller chanters and ran the gun drill through carefully to remove any excess shellac, the idea being to only fill in the pores and tear out areas. Sure enough, all the ones I shellaced did in fact come out brighter. For example, the walnut was now brighter than the cherry.

This was all with the same reed. No, I made no recordings and have since done away with the evidence in one way or another (rental sets or interesting kindling).

The "what I think" part:
Northumbrian pipes having small bores makes the bore smoothness that much more critical than uilleann, I believe, as a small open grain or tear out is a larger % of the total bore volume than on a larger bore instrument. So it makes sense that the larger the bore, the less difference the wood makes.

I personally use dark woods like blackwood, ebony, and ziricote, because (a) they sound good, (b) they look good with imitation ivory and any metal, and (c) they are easily repairable (try replacing a knocked off key block on an oak chanter so that it is not detectable!). Grainless light colored woods like box would be fairly easy to repair as well.

Disclaimer:
I did not make a glass chanter. I think that is Bruce Childress's realm!

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:58 am

Bill, where do you stand on the tone issue? I suppose I could reread all of the previous pages, but I am very lazy.

Yes, pipes and fiddles are about as different as fish and cattle. But don't you discern a notable difference in chanter tone when listening to those constructed out of different lumber? I do....of course, I am also psychologically challenged but that shouldn't matter, should it?

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:03 pm

Liestman:"In short, Bill H is right. Basically, it does not matter at all what type of wood pipes are made of, rather it matters how that wood reacts to machining. Woods that, due to their grain and other factors, yield a very smooth bore produce a brighter tone than woods that yield a grainy bore. "
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Makes good sense.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:45 pm

EXCELLENT post John, and to the point.I would love to see this experiment re-created with reproduceable, measureable data. Perchance using a decible meter etc. Brightness is not an easily defined or measureable value, volume on the other hand is. Hmmm...do I detect a Piper's review article?

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:36 pm

Only if you write it! In your spare time. . . bwaa haaa haaa!

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:57 pm

An article from the African Blackwood Conservation Project writes:

If you have ever heard the mellow tones of a jazz or classical clarinet solo, you have been listening to the natural sound of an instrument made of mpingo. In the last century, cocuswood from the Caribbean region was the wood of choice for woodwinds, but the species was driven into economic extinction by that demand. African blackwood is now the wood used exclusively for fine quality woodwind instruments. Their manufacture demands a perfect piece of wood free of all defects to allow the intricate machining necessary to create such a complex instrument. To quote flutemaker Casey Burns, "African blackwood, which makes an excellent flute, is now the standard by which all other flute tonewoods are judged."

Blackwood clarinets are known for their warm and beguiling musical tone. Most professional musicians feel there is no substitute for an instrument made of blackwood. Acker Bilk, well-known clarinetist for such pieces as "Stranger on the Shore", had this to say about mpingo clarinets in the PBS video, "The Tree of Music": "It's got that warmth about it, that live sort of feel about it–wood–you can't beat it!"

Garvie Bagpipes of Edinburgh writes:

Mopane, like blackwood, is a dense African hardwood. It has an attractive honey-like colour and a well marked darker brown grain. It has excellent tone qualities, and takes a fine finish - in my experience I have found no better tone wood for Border pipes. It's a touch softer than blackwood (although the reed is also a factor here) but still gives a vibrant tone with the potential for crisp grace notes.

*********

So if "Woods that, due to their grain and other factors, yield a very smooth bore produce a brighter tone than woods that yield a grainy bore" as liestman says, perhaps that's why some woods produce a better tone? A delrin chanter, made to the same dimensions as an ebony, would have the same tone?

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:25 pm

Lorenzo - Delrin vs ebony - No, they would sound different. Drill a fine hole in a piece of each, split the piece in two and look at the drilled surface with at least a 10 power magnification, preferably more. The two do not machine at all alike.

djm · Post by **djm** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:42 pm

Liestman, I understand what you're saying about the Delrin, how it would achieve closest to the perfectly smooth bore, and wouldn't likely shrink or warp with time. It would be bound to sound brighter with the greater reflectivity of the surface, but wouldn't it also have different resonance than a dense wood like ebony? I would think you'd have to make a Delrin chanter pretty thick to come close to the solidity of an ebony chanter.

djm

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:59 pm

My question about delrin was a little rhetorical. Anyone who plays both, or listens to both knows the difference. My comment about glass had to do with it's smoothest properties (I assume glass is smoother than metal). As smooth as glass is...the glass flute I played was far from bright, compared to wood. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the glass flute was the darkest, softest, mellowest sounding flute I've heard. I could only assume this was due to the material...it's density, or something, etc (I'm no scientist)...I know not the answer except to doubt that smooth mean bright.